Decline in Caver Numbers

[Marcus]

Good thread - so many things to think about. Much sense talked.

I started caving at 13 with my youth club, twice a year or so. At 16 I went along with a couple of friends to the Swindon club and joined. Welcoming enough and easy to find. Spent most of my time at Sheffield on rock (walls were for the occasional social only) and then went along, on my own, to a TSG meeting. The point is that it is not only the sedentary (ish) life style that is affecting club intakes, it is that some people seem want everything on a plate. I stayed with Swindon for quite a few years 'cos of the social side and the trips abroad.

It took a search for “UK caving clubs sheffield” in Google to come up with the first hit as the HNH list. That was hard work! I would certainly not deny that I am not always the quickest to respond to emails (true comment, Graham), but if someone is actually interested in caving, they should not give up so easily.

As far as advertising goes – I'm torn on this one. Clubs need to stay viable, and keep new blood coming in, but I think carefully about who I would want to be stuck underground with if things didn't go quite to plan. Even more so if it is the “wet stuff”. Besides, I cave for fun, and caving with like minded people is the tops!

I have also spent much of my caving arranging trips with a few friends, usually met through clubs, rather than going on organized “club trips”. They may even be of the “want to go caving this evening?” type (and P8 s4 is certainly do-able on a week day evening while still making the pub). You often meet other cavers at huts, or thorough people you cave with, and from that perspective, which club you belong to is irrelevant. I spent a number of years with my only club as the CDG, and caved with people from all over.

Cheers,

Marcus

 

[cap n chris]

Good response from Marcus; I, too, am a caving tart and will go underground with whomever I please from whatever club (obviously they need to have invited me along first!*), after all if you don't enjoy the company you won't want to go with them.

* Oh, and sometimes without being invited!

 

[Stu]

Good thread - so many things to think about. Much sense talked.

I started caving at 13 with my youth club, twice a year or so. At 16 I went along with a couple of friends to the Swindon club and joined.

As far as advertising goes – I'm torn on this one. Clubs need to stay viable, and keep new blood coming in, but I think carefully about who I would want to be stuck underground with if things didn't go quite to plan. Even more so if it is the “wet stuff”. Besides, I cave for fun, and caving with like minded people is the tops!

Marcus

There is an irony here don't you think? Who took you on your first club trips? What was their impression of you? Would they have wanted to spend any time underground, stuck, with you?

There needs to be an element of passing the baton on perhaps. One day they may turn into the caver that you hope is around if the sh1t hits the fan!

 

[andymorgan]

I agree fully with Stu's comments above.
Even if a club is easy to going without learning a funny handshake and kissing a turkey's ass like masons, most clubs have their long established cliques of groups of friends. These guys always go caving together and are unwilling to do a less exciting or less difficult trip to show a novice what it is like....

Also because little was done in the past to attract new members the demography of many clubs is old men over 50 who are invariably arrogant. When you join a club you also like a bit of social interaction, and these guys may seem like completely the opposite type of people to what the potential younger males and female members want to interact with. This doesn't mean that all over 50s in the clubs are bad (the ones in ours are a hoot), what I am trying to say (!) it may just be a bit intimidating for new potential members.
And further to Stu's point an old guy who looks like he is about to have a heart attack leading you on a trip doesn't always inspire confidence! Likewise the arrogant one who drags you around at high speed and makes you do difficult climbs without reassurance or saftey aids also will put off many newbies.

 

[Marcus]

There is an irony here don't you think? Who took you on your first club trips? What was their impression of you? Would they have wanted to spend any time underground, stuck, with you?

There needs to be an element of passing the baton on perhaps. One day they may turn into the caver that you hope is around if the sh1t hits the fan!

Touché!

The distinction for me, fine though it may be considered, is that I went out and found a club, went along for a few weeks, and got to know people a little so at least they could see what sort of a tw@t I was before taking me underground. That as opposed to trawling (emotive, sorry) for members and see who turns up. (Posting in a purely personal capacity, my resistance to advertising is more related to the underwater potholing side. People who come and find us are generally established cavers, and probably known within the caving community.)

I'm also guilty of mixing the initial, and hopefully straight forward, trips with more serious undertakings.

I keep having this intention to go along on some of the TSG trips, beginners as well as more general trips, for exactly that purpose (passing on the baton). Mind you, life and work seem to keep getting in the way……… I don't know…….. no real commitment…….

Cheers,

Marcus

 

[Deeply Mendippy]

I am not saying that joining a club is especially difficult, but it seems to me that if clubs want to address a decline in caving numbers then it is one aspect that needs to be made as easy as possible. Most of the people on this website are keen cavers and, by definition, are likely to be those that made the effort to join clubs. It is the people who did a bit of caving at university (or wherever) who never get around to joining a club that drift away from the sport.

The problem does not lie with finding a contact number or address with a club. An average caver coming from a uni will probably have had less than 3 years caving and may have been on no more than a dozen trips. Joining a club where most members will be 20 years older than you and have been regular cavers (as it were) for 20 years more than you is an intimidating experience, especially if you then have to be judged on your caving ability before you can join.

If clubs etc are concerned about falling numbers then I think that they have to take the initiative. Simply putting up a website with a contact address does not seem to be the solution; if it were then we would not be having this debate. It is certainly not the fault of clubs but with an ever increasing number of options then we need to make even more of an effort not to lose people than in the past.

 

[graham]

Good response from Marcus; I, too, am a caving tart and will go underground with whomever I please from whatever club (obviously they need to have invited me along first!*), after all if you don't enjoy the company you won't want to go with them.

* Oh, and sometimes without being invited!

We've noticed.

BTW possibly on for a photo trip Thursday, depending on the state of Andrew's DIY.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Some new members are easier than others for a club to satisfy. A fit caver with transport, caving kit, social skills, and enthusiasm should easily absorb into the club system. But what about the person who can't afford or can't be bothered to get their own kit? What about the person who never seems to progress above being led on easy trips? Or the one who consistently signs up for trips that are beyond them? I don't personally approve of the 'if you ain't hard...' attitude but sometimes I can see why it gets applied.

 

[Stu]

I'd still like to know if numbers are on the decline. For example, I started caving 10 years ago, being most active in the last five. I joined a club two years ago. I'd never joined BCRA/BCA/MI5 or whoever before that. Obvlivious to the needs for insurance I caved with a couple of mates.

I suspect I'll have only got onto the "official" figures for the last two of the ten. As a poster on another thread mentioned, s'funny how you get to the cave you have a permit for and have to queue!

I suspect this is a topic with no provable conclusion.

 

[cap n chris]

There are PLENTY of people who want to go caving, just so long as:-

1) All the gear is provided for them
2) They are picked up and dropped off
3) It's easy and doesn't require much/any effort
4) They can cry off and cease the trip at any time (often before it's even begun)
5) It's free
6) They don't have to organise anything

Basically anyone who is enthusiastic, keen, prepared to pay their own money for kit and is pleasant, intelligent and a laugh is going to be snapped up by any half decent club. There just aren't many people who fall into the latter category but there's plenty who fulful the former.

 

[Hughie]

But what about the person who can't afford or can't be bothered to get their own kit? What about the person who never seems to progress above being led on easy trips? Or the one who consistently signs up for trips that are beyond them? I don't personally approve of the 'if you ain't hard...' attitude but sometimes I can see why it gets applied.

Excepting the "can't afford" category, do you really want clubs to be filled with the other categories?

It's really not difficult to get into caving. I'm with Cap'n C, Marcus and co on this one.

It's a motivation issue.

 

[cave junky]

As a member of a caving club, at the recent AGM it was dishartening to find that there were only 2 people in the room including me under the age of 30. I think it would be great to get more people my age involved, but then I think of the people I am university with and think perhaps not. I don't know about the people that join university caving clubs, but I have been at university for 3 years and a member of the mountaineering club as we don't have a caving club. Of the people I climb with here I wouldn't want to be in a club with 90% of them, outside of university. So this brings me to cross roads, should I try get my caving club to organise a systems for attracting university cavers or do I not bother after my experiences of the last 3 years.
Ally

 

[AndyF]

Personally, I was a pretty useless geek when I came out of uni (some would probably say I still am!!). It took a few more years of "real life" before I could really get trips organised, do rigging, arrange trips abroad, i.e. the stuff that people slightly older than me used to be doing for me. It's all part of life.

Some people then get married, go off and have kids and a volvo, or become absorbed with a career. Others (like me) just carry on....

I've done my best caving and digging since the age of 35 (I'm 41 now, I think). I'm off to the Pyrenees tomorrow for a week... ... I haven't decended into armchair caverdom yet..

Post uni cavers shouldn't dismiss "older" orientated clubs, they may be very surprised at the stuff that goes on...

Age is mainly a state of mind.

 

[Marcus]

Age is mainly a state of mind.

Mainly ...... until the body gives out!

Marcus

 

[Deeply Mendippy]

I seem to be setting myself up as a champion of the lazy, incompetent and apathetic! (which probably qualifies me to be England football manager or something)

I know i'm flogging a dead horse but my point is not that people are too lazy to join a club. Rather that if you live out of a caving area then you probably have to travel 45 minutes to the nearest club meeting, and if you are not sure if the joining requirements are merely a polite way of saying new cavers not wanted, then many people may just think 'sod it, i'll join the local korfball/zorbing/stick-fighting club instead'.

 

[graham]

I seem to be setting myself up as a champion of the lazy, incompetent and apathetic! (which probably qualifies me to be England football manager or something)

I know i'm flogging a dead horse but my point is not that people are too lazy to join a club. Rather that if you live out of a caving area then you probably have to travel 45 minutes to the nearest club meeting, and if you are not sure if the joining requirements are merely a polite way of saying new cavers not wanted, then many people may just think 'sod it, i'll join the local korfball/zorbing/stick-fighting club instead'.

That Zorbing thing looks good, think I'll give up caving.

 

[Marcus]

That Zorbing thing looks good, think I'll give up caving.

Better still..... half fill it with water!

 

[Andy Sparrow]

That Zorbing thing looks good, think I'll give up caving.

Better still..... half fill it with water!

Perhaps with a smaller version you could do the Swinsto through-trip?

 

[gus horsley]

I've been caving for 40 years and had to give up recently. Throughout most of that time I haven't been living in an area where there is an established club. In order to gain access to OFD etc and to get insurance I formed "clubs" with only a few members, sometimes just me: Cardigan Caving Club, Fishguard explorers Club, Teifi Vally Caving Group and a few others I can't remember the names of. Then I would do solo trips into various classic systems at ridiculous times of the day due to the length of time it takes to travel. Cwmdwr - Top were often 3am starts. To keep in touch with other clubs and individuals my "clubs" became members of regional organisations and even published journals. I became Assistant Conservation Officer for the Cambrian Caving Council for 10 years and made a few friends and enemies. The point I'm making, apart from coming across as Billy-Nomates, is that anyone can go caving if they feel determined enough and you can operate successfully as a solo caver. And I'll shut up now and retreat as far to the Southwest as I can.

 

[Chris J]

[quote="Marcus

The distinction for me, fine though it may be considered, is that I went out and found a club, went along for a few weeks, and got to know people a little so at least they could see what sort of a tw@t I was before taking me underground. That as opposed to trawling (emotive, sorry) for members and see who turns up. (Posting in a purely personal capacity, my resistance to advertising is more related to the underwater potholing side. People who come and find us are generally established cavers, and probably known within the caving community.)

[/quote]

The whole point of trying to attract uni cavers -is that they aren't novices. Some of them may even have done some pretty decent trips, expeditions and digs! You can find out what someone is like by asking about their experience.