Decline in Caving?

[Peter Burgess]

Perhaps its just a perception of the commitment required. Do folks think perhaps that "Caving has to be for life" whereas the gym or swimming pool is just for evenings and weekends when they can fit it in?

 

[gus horsley]

Caving is for life Peter.  After three years not going underground I'm going to re-explode upon the caving scene (just as soon as I get some reliable lights sorted), medical condition or not.  Watch out folks!

 

[shotlighter]

Perhaps its just a perception of the commitment required. Do folks think perhaps that "Caving has to be for life" whereas the gym or swimming pool is just for evenings and weekends when they can fit it in?

It's for life alright - even when you're elderly (I must be, I've just had a postal invite to take part in survey of same ) & knackered there's still something to contribute. Be it digging, admin or just aggravating younger cavers!

 

[wormster]

All this talk has got me thinking of my own "return" to caving:

As a nipper (about 8 i think) my father and older brothers had a walking holiday in North Wales, I was allowed to go as well.

We did various high level walks and because my oldest brother happened to be at Coleg Y Normal we went to cwm croesor and did the number 9 addit.

over the last 32 years I've walked, climbed, canoed and in the last 3 years caved* all over the world.

*Well not the caving bit anyway, I started caving about 20 years ago in the Swansea valley with my oldest bro who was working in the valley at Minerva outdoor center and then as a show guide in Dan yr Ogof.

I've enjoyed EVERY trip that I have made, met some wonderful folks along the way and even more importantly found that where I live there's a loose bunch of about 1/2 a dozen caver's who are willing to share kit, rides and fun.

as for decline..............................can't help you there sorry

 

[kay]

So, if you are a caver you'll be doing lots of caving. If you don't do lots of caving you're either a non-caver, an ex-caver or a resting caver who is eager to get back to doing lots of caving.

Or maybe you're someone who wants to cave now and again. Like someone who enjoys going out for a good meal a couple of times a year but doesn't want to do it every week.

Caving may be for life. But I don't see why it has to be your whole life (unless you want it that way)

 

[Les W]

Caving may be for life. But I don't see why it has to be your whole life

Aha. That's where I'm going wrong then. 

 

[graham]

Caving may be for life. But I don't see why it has to be your whole life (unless you want it that way)

No, you're right, there's also beer. 

 

[kay]

Caving may be for life. But I don't see why it has to be your whole life

Aha. That's where I'm going wrong then. 

Unless you want it to be, I said.
Or do you mean that under that whole-life-caver exterior there's  very-occasional-caver struggling to get out? 

 

[shotlighter]

So, if you are a caver you'll be doing lots of caving. If you don't do lots of caving you're either a non-caver, an ex-caver or a resting caver who is eager to get back to doing lots of caving.

Or maybe you're someone who wants to cave now and again. Like someone who enjoys going out for a good meal a couple of times a year but doesn't want to do it every week.

Caving may be for life. But I don't see why it has to be your whole life (unless you want it that way)

You may have hit the nail on the head there. I know folk who are cavers to the exclusion of all other things in life (some may say bloody selfish) & others who are lifelong cavers, who just keep "dipping their toes back in the water" so to speak. But they never loose the bug.

 

[ian.p]

Perhaps they should JFDI and remember the help and support they needed when they began caving as a novice not so many years ago.

i agree the notion that anyone whos meant to become a caver will become a caver no matter how closed we try and be to the outside world iritates me somewhat would you want to take part in a sport where the participents spend there time debating wether or not we even want more people because they might damige the caves or become a burden. from the outside looking in i suspect the caving world apears quite closed.

 

[kay]

Caving can seem closed because what publicity there is often focuses on difficulties, how hard you have to be, how deep the caves are, the 'specialised rope techniques' required. The obvious analogy is scuba diving - and that attracts people, I think, not because of the challenge and the specialist techniques, but because of what you can see once you have mastered those techniques.

Other activities often publicise how easy it is to get started.

It's a difficult question as to how much you want to attract people. Obviously, the more people you attract into a natural environment, the more damage you do to that environment. But if it weren't for the anglers, the narrow boat people and the canoeists, would are canals and the associated towpaths be as well preserved as they are? Would we have such good (relative to the past) access to the countryside if it weren't for the ramblers? Would nature reserves exist to protect our wild plants and animals if no one were interested in seeing them?

 

[ditzy 24//7]

quiet a few children are put off by the idea of doing caving for one reason or another like soe dont like the dark and others dont like getting muddy and others dont like small spaces and a few also dont lie doing things to do with heights but thats the way it had and always will be but there is normally a way round it. if you manage to get a person in a cave they are likely to like it and see how good it is.

ditzy

 

[ian.p]

one of things thats been noticed in fsc is that realy young people(<7) are generaly compleatly fine with the small spaces and dont seem to notice the dark perticulaly but once theyve been exposed to commen ideas of what is scary its then that thease bariers are created.

 

[ditzy 24//7]

true.

 

[Hughie]

.... any grade 4 or higher cave ...

Not familiar with this method of grading caves - I need to get out more, obviously!

What Mendip caves would compare (if any)?

 

[Rachel]

one of things thats been noticed in fsc is that realy young people(<7) are generaly compleatly fine with the small spaces and dont seem to notice the dark perticulaly but once theyve been exposed to commen ideas of what is scary its then that thease bariers are created.

That's because the small spaces aren't small when you're 4ft tall and can run along crawls!

I agree with your point though. I spent a summer working on a ropes course with kids and the littlest ones would climb anything without fear. It was the bigger kids with the sense of danger and active imaginations who were scared (but not as scared as me sometimes). I think that's just part of normal development though - that small children will wander off with strangers, run across the busy road and poke big dogs with sharp sticks and hence need an adult in tow to encourage the adventurous side but step in when adventure looks like turning into danger. In my own (limited) experience, I found that the tendency to be not scared of anything underground meant that I had to not give my daughter her own light to prevent her legging it off down side passages I'm too big to follow down. It's only in the past year (from age 6) that she's developed a sense of danger strong enough to listen to instructions.

 

[Elaine]

I think ian.p is right when he says that children eventually get exposed to common ideas of what is scary and then they develop their fears or sense of wariness - which is just as well because they are learning how to stay safe. I have taken quite a number of groups of children on caving trips and it is often the smallest ones who say 'I wont fit through there Miss' despite the fact they have seen grown adults two or three times their size just do it!

 

[cap n chris]

Grade 4 trips on Mendip include:

Longwood August 4
Eastwater Cavern 4
Priddy Green Sink/Swildon's 4
St. Cuthbert's Swallet 4
Swildon's Hole Short Round Trip 4
Thrupe Lane Swallet 4
Stoke Lane Slocker 4
Manor Farm 3-4

Have led some of these without any assistance and not having done them previously, subsequently also happy enough to tackle some of them solo too.

 

[Hughie]

Thanks, Cap'n.

Often wondered how a 1-5 grading system would apply on Mendip given the current guide books descriptions.

 

[Known by None]

I think ian.p is right when he says that children eventually get exposed to common ideas of what is scary and then they develop their fears or sense of wariness - which is just as well because they are learning how to stay safe. I have taken quite a number of groups of children on caving trips and it is often the smallest ones who say 'I wont fit through there Miss' despite the fact they have seen grown adults two or three times their size just do it!

I can relate to this.
A lot of the common phobias come from conditioning, be it accidental or purposeful by adults at an early stage in the child's life. I remember being scared to do a letterbox squeeze on a caving trip in Pencelli as a child simply because an adult (a figure that was infallible to me at that age) wouldn't do it, and while in time I forgot all about the why and the wherefore, I grew up very much afraid of tight squeezes in caves, even though I had never even tried one. It is good to teach children to be safe, but scare mongering and over embellishing on something is going to be counter productive in the long run, as an adult if something looks scary and dangerous to me it probably is, but as a kid every little thing can seem and be flagged as dangerous, this can nurture irrational phobias when all we really need to instill in children is common sense and a level of enjoyment that might not result in the closure a sport/pursuit/pastime to them forever. This modern day Health and Safety crap while useful in some cases is also especially good at building mental barriers towards most activities that could endanger one's sense of comfort and well being.