Decline in Caving?

[andymorgan]

heya c**tplaces so then why is it that you are saying thst it is decliying caveing numbers but then on thr other hand you are stopping people under the age of 18 regestering with c**tplaces so they cant get information that they requier. and baning members who havent done much wrong and banning them for the most stupid reasons.

This is a private matter, I have reported this post to the web master.

Er, why?

 

[Dep]

heya c**tplaces so then why is it that you are saying thst it is decliying caveing numbers but then on thr other hand you are stopping people under the age of 18 regestering with c**tplaces so they cant get information that they requier. and baning members who havent done much wrong and banning them for the most stupid reasons.

This is a private matter, I have reported this post to the web master.

Er, why?

My thoughts too. Ditzy's question was polite enough. I get the impression she has touched a raw nerve there.
The forum could do with livening up a bit, so do please elucidate...

 

[Slug]

Hmm . perhaps admin should start a new section to this forum.. called, say Libel and abuse, where people can Slag each other off, and let the rest of Us get on with some (semi) serious discussions.,,, with a ,say, Big Disclaimer stating something along the lines of.. Don't post if You can't take it back, so no smarmy shyster can't wade in throwing law suits about..

Or is that a bit too controversial ? :-\

 

[darkplaces]

heya c**tplaces so then why is it that you are saying thst it is decliying caveing numbers but then on thr other hand you are stopping people under the age of 18 regestering with c**tplaces so they cant get information that they requier. and baning members who havent done much wrong and banning them for the most stupid reasons.

This is a private matter, I have reported this post to the web master.

Er, why?

Because Ditzy refers to a private temporary situation.

 

[Cookie]

Darkplaces and Cookie - you are both wrong.  It's not the fault of insurance executives; they are merely providing a service which we can decide to use or not.  The real problem is that legal professionals, paid extortionate amounts of remuneration, are able to extort large amounts of money out of you.  An insurer offers you a way to prevent that in many circumstances.

Call it personal prejudice, but every time I have had any dealing with insurance companies they have tried to shaft me and failed to deliver upon their promises.  On the other hand I have met some decent lawyers who have done a professional job.

The insurance companies are culpable. The sport of caving has no real choice. Insurance is not a service it can decide to use or not. Watch the caves shut and the clubs fold without insurance as happened in November 2003.

However you are right, it is not just the insurance companies. It is the insurance companies, the lawyers and the politicians in a cosy three way triangle. If the legal framework was different, there would be less need for insurances.

BCA has done an excellent job of setting up the insurance scheme in my view.

I'm not knocking the BCA scheme. Given that it has to exist, I'm a keen advocate of it. The more people in the scheme the cheaper it is for everyone.

But that is tempered the knowledge that the insurance companies are not a public service. They are only looking after their own interests, not ours.

 

[Joe Duxbury]

To return to the original query, caving seems to be thriving in Eastern Europe. The caving clubs there have no shortage of young people, despite the fact that some countries (eg Poland) have a much more stratified and controlled organisation. In Britain it's not just caving, but all sports that are in decline. A golf club secretary I know tells me they have far fewer young people joining.

 

[ttxela]

and yet most people I know with children seem to be constantly ferrying them between gym clubs, riding lessons, football matches, swimming classes, trampolining lessons, dancing lessons, karate, judo........ :-\

 

[kay]

But children aren't young people 

Once puberty kicks in, all these activities stop.

 

[Chris J]

Examples from real life:

I used to play competitive sport at school but was only second string. Therefore didn't make it to the uni teams and gave those sports up - (plenty of people in that category)

I have a friend who used to do triathalons but his job got in the way of training so he wasn't competitive any more and gave up.

Another friend used to do lots of diving (hardly a sport I know) now he works really hard and doesn't want to have long weekends away driving to Plymouth or some where.

Lots of other friends who can't make time for caving or similar sports now they have jobs, mortgages and are trying to climb the career ladder.

As a society time is a really scarce resource for most of us.

 

[Londoncaver]

Not convinced it's an issue in all other sports. My canoe club has grown steadily over the last three years. Mostly people in their 20s and 30s, too (we don't take under 18s). Structure is similar to caving (weekends away etc). Climbing seems to be on a bit of a roll these days. And there are several hundred people - mostly young to middle-aged adults - doing high-speed skates on the roads of central London each weekend (8-15 miles, in traffic).
And that's just the sports where I know people who participate.

 

[whitelackington]

Not convinced it's an issue in all other sports. My canoe club has grown steadily over the last three years. Mostly people in their 20s and 30s, too (we don't take under 18s). Structure is similar to caving (weekends away etc). Climbing seems to be on a bit of a roll these days. And there are several hundred people - mostly young to middle-aged adults - doing high-speed skates on the roads of central London each weekend (8-15 miles, in traffic).
And that's just the sports where I know people who participate.

Hello Londoncaver,
have you got many caves in London :-\


Next question,
were you one of the unknown London Cavers in 1970 who found Mangle Hole :-\

 

[Londoncaver]

Fraid not - to both questions. I was 2 in 1970, so would have been good at any narrow crawls.

 

[Pitlamp]

Well said Chris J; in the UK at present the government seem to have got us all chasing round like maniacs at work so we've often too little time and energy for the things we'd rather be doing.  This is a national problem and I'm sure it's a factor in the difficulties caving clubs face in recruiting.

 

[Clarie]

I'm not sure it's the government who has us running around like maniacs at work. In my experience people spend time on what they regard as important... if you think having enough money is important, you work hard to get it. If you think caving is important, you make the time to do it. If you think your family is important, you spend the time with them.  Obviously these things aren't necessarily exclusive but everyone faces pressures and everyone has the same amount of time in the day. The question is, what do you spend your time on?
Maybe it's a very existentialist position, but I think people do what they want to do.

 

[cap n chris]

Good points, Clarie. Agree.

i.e. you meet lots of people who whinge, saying stuff like "I'd like to do such-and-such, la-di-dah" etc. (OK, so they don't actually say that but you know what I mean) - and the obvious retort is "If you REALLY want to do such-and-such, just do it rather than wobble on about it". "Just Do It" (also known as JFDI) is a great expression, IMO.

So, if you are a caver you'll be doing lots of caving. If you don't do lots of caving you're either a non-caver, an ex-caver or a resting caver who is eager to get back to doing lots of caving. Or perhaps you're one of those people who claim they want to do something but don't actually ever do it, relying instead on flimsy excuses and last minute get-out clauses - if so, just be honest with yourself and admit that you don't actually want to do it, you just fancy the idea of doing it as long as it doesn't mean you have to get your hands dirty, get sweaty or actually exert yourself to any extent.

 

[whitelackington]

I agree with both the last posters.

If you want to be a caver JUST DO IT

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I happen to know for a fact that at least one of the posters preaching the JFDI principle is reluctant to venture in any grade 4 or higher cave unknown to them unless they have someone to show them the way.  Perhaps they should JFDI and remember the help and support they needed when they began caving as a novice not so many years ago.

 

[graham]

I happen to know for a fact that at least one of the posters preaching the JFDI principle is reluctant to venture in any grade 4 or higher cave unknown to them unless they have someone to show them the way.  Perhaps they should JFDI and remember the help and support they needed when they began caving as a novice not so many years ago.

And I happen to believe that people should keep their private squabbles off the board.

We all know that there are limits to our own skills/abilities and - if we are wise - we acknowledge them and work within them. Not doing so is frankly barmy.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Perhaps they should JFDI

One thing I have learnt is that most cavers resist being told what 'they should' do. But them stubbornness is a good trait to have in many underground situations. It is more positively called 'determination'.

Ha! Graham's reply sort of makes the point.

 

[paul]

I don't think the discussion around JFDI is relevant to Young People not Taking Up Caving. It isn't that they haven't the time - they manage to partake in many other activities (football, playing with their computer games, etc., etc.) - they haven't the inclination to take up caving.