Descenders

[Andy Sparrow]

you seem to be saying that if wallop uses a stop - he/she is almost bound to have a serious accident because of it.

And are you suggesting that the stop should be erradicated from UK caving practice :?

Don't be ridiculous. I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that when someone asks for advice about descenders the inherent dangers of the Stop should be, at least, mentioned. More than 99% of Stop users will not have any mishap but this still means that out of a thousand plus users we can expect accidents on an annual basis - and this is what is happening.

I am suggesting that the governing bodies of caving in other European countries like France and Belgium got it right when they advised against using the Stop as a standard SRT descender - and their incidents of accidents demonstrates this. Yes - I think we should adopt the same policy here but I am not so naive as to believe it will happen.

 

[wallop]

Thanks everyone for your views, it is very much appreciated.


Everyone has got there own opinion which is a good thing really. Maybe keeping things like this high profile will make not just novices really think
but also the experienced caver think when they use their stop or any other descender.

 

[epik]

more Stop users = more accidents = more seriously injured, crippled or dead cavers.

Not wishing to point out the obvious but there are more accidents with stops because there are more stops than racks! More people use stops than racks so more people that injure themselves are stop users, if you banned stops racks would then find themselves with the highest accident rate! And by teh same logic if you banned racks etc the figure8 would become the biggest killer so those sort of stats are relatively useless!

Its like saying men are more dangerous drivers than women becasue they have more accidents when actually men have more accidents because more road users are men!

Personally i'd use whatever you feel happiest with! Personally i'd use a stop as never seen a accident with a stop but have seen accidents with racks and figure of eights! The stop is also more versatile than a rack IMHO!

P.S. All this talk of inherent dangers but has anyone actually told him what these inherent dangers are yet?

 

[epik]

Just an after thought.....

Camp used to make a stop copy which had a double handle system where it locked if you let go like the stop but also stopped if you gripped too tight! It had a window if you like in the middle where it would lower but had that extra fail safe!

Anyone ever used one caving?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

more Stop users = more accidents = more seriously injured, crippled or dead cavers.

Not wishing to point out the obvious but there are more accidents with stops because there are more stops than racks! More people use stops than racks so more people that injure themselves are stop users, if you banned stops racks would then find themselves with the highest accident rate! And by teh same logic if you banned racks etc the figure8 would become the biggest killer so those sort of stats are relatively useless!

Its like saying men are more dangerous drivers than women becasue they have more accidents when actually men have more accidents because more road users are men!

Personally i'd use whatever you feel happiest with! Personally i'd use a stop as never seen a accident with a stop but have seen accidents with racks and figure of eights! The stop is also more versatile than a rack IMHO!

P.S. All this talk of inherent dangers but has anyone actually told him what these inherent dangers are yet?

Did you know that only 25% French cavers use a Stop, the other 75% using a bobbin? By your logic most accidents should be Bobbin related but in reality they are not - it is the 25% of Stop users who have the majority of accidents.

Please don't patronise me by suggesting I have missed the 'obvious'. As I have already said, I have spents tens of hours studying this, and I started very much from a pro-Stop point of view.

 

[cap n chris]

The inherent danger of owning a Stop is that you rarely actually get an opportunity to go caving since most of your life is spent debating the relative merits of various abseiling devices, their safety record and accident histories.

 

[epik]

Did you know that only 25% French cavers use a Stop, the other 75% using a bobbin? By your logic most accidents should be Bobbin related but in reality they are not - it is the 25% of Stop users who have the majority of accidents.

Please don't patronise me by suggesting I have missed the 'obvious'. As I have already said, I have spents tens of hours strudying this, and I started very much from a pro-Stop point of view.

Again in no way wishing to argue (and wasnt trying to be patronising) but i do just find this interesting (suspect we are the only two here who do ) firstly i would suggest that that says more about the French system of training than the equipment which is i guess kind of what you've said. So can't argue possibly!

However one thing i would wonder is if that statistic says more about the type of people who would be drawn to a stop! Cavers of experience are more likely to have had experience with non-autolocking devices so feel comfortable in controlling their own fate. These experienced cavers are more likely to buy a basic (bobbin) where as the people that the word "autolock" appeals to most are novices!

When the GriGri was launched in the UK climbing scene its accident rate was high due to shops pushing its autolocking tag and thus found favour with novices. It therefore had a higher accident rate because it appealed to people who are more likely to have an accident, rather than banning it the BMC made a large effort with leaflets, posters and magazine articles about proper use and some of the "dangers" of it!

Would think the stop in france is a similar reason. Its being used by accident prone cavers rather than it is accident prone! Also rental kit could play a part as rental shops don't always give proper instruction on use but are often taken with using autolocking equipment!

p.s. it wasnt camp it was kong! as below

http://www.kong.it/doc405.htm

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Statistics can be argued all day and as long as people have pre-fixed ideas they will adopt or reject whatever does or does not agree with them. I had to report on two accidents to cavers one of which caused permament disablement. The conclusion I came to was that that neither of these accidents would have happened if a bobbin rather than a Stop had been used. So there we are - not statistics but real people with real lives that, in one case, is permanently affected. As a consequence of this I feel morally obliged to express my opinions in the vague hope it might make a difference to someone one day.

 

[graham]

The inherent danger of owning a Stop is that you rarely actually get an opportunity to go caving since most of your life is spent debating the relative merits of various abseiling devices, their safety record and accident histories.

or else cowering in the corner of the pub while Andy shouts at you.

My 2p worth is that I agree with Andy. The stats show that stops result in more accidents and the reasoning is clear: the way the handle is designed to be used is counter-intuitive.

Out of interest, does anyone know of a case where someone has been knocked completely unconcious on a pitch and had their life saved by a stop?

 

[cap n chris]

... surely their life was saved by another caver?.... :wink:

 

[SamT]

The inherent danger of owning a Stop is that you rarely actually get an opportunity to go caving since most of your life is spent debating the relative merits of various abseiling devices, their safety record and accident histories.

 

[pisshead]

the kong descender sounds like a really good idea.

I guess it would be even more jerky than a stop though...also it has the same problem as a stop for people with weak hands or not amazing grip in that holding something (the brake) tight for a long period of time can be difficult (Frog mentioned this earlier too).

Is the bobbin any safer than a rack?

or is it just that it is easier to safely lock off?

 

[epik]

Can't argue with that or your reasons for your oppinion and in no-way trying to alter that oppinion. That said my godfather fell 50+ feet in yorkshire and broke some bones because he was using a Fig8 (though bobbin, rack etc would have been the same) and forgot to put his light on so clipped on and stood at the pitch head and turned his light on. He slipped and fell the full pitch length - this wouldnt have happened with a stop but doesnt make Fig8's dangerous just makes him badly trained and laxe in his approach!

Not trying to stop people expressing views and experiences of equipment (this will only help safety) but we would be doing petzl a huge injustice to imply that the stop is an inherently dangerous peice of equipment! The only danger is lack of knowledge and improper training and education is the only way to combat this - which im sure you'd agree with!

Anyway enough said - so anyone used one of these kong things in anger!

 

[epik]

the kong descender sounds like a really good idea.

I guess it would be even more jerky than a stop though...also it has the same problem as a stop for people with weak hands or not amazing grip in that holding something (the brake) tight for a long period of time can be difficult (Frog mentioned this earlier too).

It seemed ok but then i've only played with one in a nice warm trade show and not down a muddy cave! The gripping thing i guess is the same problem as a stop, but at least if you are too weak to hold it in it stops! Thus the reason its designed that way round rather that than make it intuetive and thus you plummet to your death if you get too weak to hold it in! Would make it more interesting though

 

[SamT]

I suppose the crux of the whole stop debate has been touched on by epik. That is that it comes down to training and background.

Im not dissagreeing with you andy when you say that there are 'statistically' more accidents with stops, than with other descending devices. I just wish that you would stop calling them 'Inherently dangerous'

ALL DESCENDING DEVICES ARE INHERENTLY DANGEROUS.

CAVING IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS.

the above statements are made with the priviso that they can be made much safer with the appropriate knowledge and education.

Andy - what is your 'vision' for stop usage then.

 

[Rachel]

Have to put my twopenneth in....

I posted on the original stop topic about the sort of training I had, ie how to not ever let go of the downgoing rope

Well, at least I now know it works. My stop has been getting increasingly fast/needing an increasing amount of friction via the braking krab. Recently, I realised that I was having trouble abseiling at a constant speed and was actually accelerating down the rope. Obviously I wasn't too happy about that, so I tried to slow myself down by increasing the friction on the braking crab. It had some effect, but I was still going faster than I wanted to be going, even at the point of pulling on the rope as hard as I could (which isn't very hard with my weedy arms. Anyway, the next thing I knew, I'd stopped. My subconcious brain must have told my left hand to let go of the red handle and my right hand to keep hold of the downgoing rope. As far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty happy that the training I got did the job, ie I did the right thing without thinking about it.

And yes, I have bought a new stop.

 

[Stu]

Read with interest all the replys. Since it seems to have been hijacked to death I assume it's ok to post an (ever so) slightly OT reply :twisted:

The stats I have no time for. They'll fit what ever arguement. I have a rope access background and in that industry the Stop (one of the original bits of kit) is slowly being phased out with use towards the Petzl I'd. This device has an action like those mentioned previously i.e. squeeze too hard and you stop the descent.

It's been mentioned that the Stop isn't too blame and that it's all down to the user or error of! That's fine in principle and applies to many applications. The problem with the Stop is that when faced with one of those sudden "quick slides" on a particularly wet bit of rope, the instinct to grab kicks in. I believe psychologists have a name for this kind of response (a negative reflex or some such - please don't quote me). So what we're in effect asking the user to do is completely at odds with a natural respnse and one which (again according to the boffs) can't be unlearnt.

So just because we've been using it all this time doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to use - neither does it mean we should stop using it!

I use a Stop and value its autolock features for changing over, hanging about etc. I'm acutely aware that it has a sting in its tail which doesn't always fill me with confidence.

 

[cap n chris]

So what we're in effect asking the user to do is completely at odds with a natural respnse and one which (again according to the boffs) can't be unlearnt.

Counter-intuitive is the expression I think you're looking for.

 

[cucc Paul]

Andys stats are stats I've heard before and I've heard all kinds of argument for and against. Number of users vs accidents etc etc. I personally think people are too reliant on the handle of the stop. I watched 4 freshers who are capable of using a stop not fully depress the handle aiding there braking. As a result im guessing if they paniced they would squeeze harder fall faster and be unaware of how much force can be needed to stop yourself using the tail. With a bobbin these bad habbits cant be picked up. With a stop the same handle also, as we all know provide a good fail safe.

Its been said before I know but maybe we should all start looking at different decenders on the market such as the one captain chris suggested on previous pages.

This comes mainly form experience of falling on a stop some how although i still use one.

 

[cucc Paul]

Just to add the freshers were in trees not to high off the ground in a relativly safe environment and we have shouted at them