Devon & Cornwall Underground Council

[mrodoc]

Thanks Jason for that helpful contribution. I had forgotten you had started moving the meetings to be honest.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Yes, thank you Jason.

The CNCC is by far the biggest regional council and you might be aware that the CNCC has seen some change recently. The general perception and standing of the CNCC, I think, hit an all time low. I think there is a great need for improvement in people's perception of the CNCC and for it to be seen more as a collective of cavers cooperating for the benefit of all cavers.

I don't know how much of the perception is down to semantics but there is one word that keeps glaring at me in almost everything I read about regional councils. In this context it is an ugly word and a confrontational word and I would like to see the word purged from the whole of caving. The word is control. We never need to use that word and I think we never should when there are so many better words. Wouldn't it be so much better to be access facilitators and permit providers?

I don't know how this fits in with the DCUC but the CNCC has some way to go in improving its standing amongst cavers and the words we use matter.

 

[royfellows]

I can see the good intention but am no fan of 'New Speak'
Issues sometimes arise when people dont know what the other is talking about.

Hearing a reference to "sex workers" I thought it meant therapists, I suppose that in some ways I was right.

 

[nearlywhite]

Yes, thank you Jason.

The CNCC is by far the biggest regional council and you might be aware that the CNCC has seen some change recently. The general perception and standing of the CNCC, I think, hit an all time low. I think there is a great need for improvement in people's perception of the CNCC and for it to be seen more as a collective of cavers cooperating for the benefit of all cavers.

I don't know how much of the perception is down to semantics but there is one word that keeps glaring at me in almost everything I read about regional councils. In this context it is an ugly word and a confrontational word and I would like to see the word purged from the whole of caving. The word is control. We never need to use that word and I think we never should when there are so many better words. Wouldn't it be so much better to be access facilitators and permit providers?

I don't know how this fits in with the DCUC but the CNCC has some way to go in improving its standing amongst cavers and the words we use matter.

A spade's a spade. Control of access is there for a reason etc. Different argument that's well covered elsewhere on the forum.

The DCUC sound like they're doing the best of a difficult situation. Does Cornwall need caving representation or just an access group. Mind you should Devon just come under the CSCC? It's less ridiculous than minera and the alyn valley being administered by the CCC.

I'll stop before I start another argument

 

[Jason Pain]

Thanks to those that have contacted us directly by email today, hopefully we have been able to answer some of your questions, in our email replies.

I know we will discuss ideas raised at our AGM being held on Monday 23rd February 19:30  at Liskeard Town Hall.

Anyone wanting further info please contact me / us by email.


Jason Pain
DCUC Secretary
secretary@dcuc.org.uk

 

[Simon Wilson]

Yes, thank you Jason.

The CNCC is by far the biggest regional council and you might be aware that the CNCC has seen some change recently. The general perception and standing of the CNCC, I think, hit an all time low. I think there is a great need for improvement in people's perception of the CNCC and for it to be seen more as a collective of cavers cooperating for the benefit of all cavers.

I don't know how much of the perception is down to semantics but there is one word that keeps glaring at me in almost everything I read about regional councils. In this context it is an ugly word and a confrontational word and I would like to see the word purged from the whole of caving. The word is control. We never need to use that word and I think we never should when there are so many better words. Wouldn't it be so much better to be access facilitators and permit providers?

I don't know how this fits in with the DCUC but the CNCC has some way to go in improving its standing amongst cavers and the words we use matter.

A spade's a spade. Control of access is there for a reason etc. Different argument that's well covered elsewhere on the forum.

The DCUC sound like they're doing the best of a difficult situation. Does Cornwall need caving representation or just an access group. Mind you should Devon just come under the CSCC? It's less ridiculous than minera and the alyn valley being administered by the CCC.

I'll stop before I start another argument

I used to think there was a North/South divide in caving. This thread has made me think that it is more like a core/periphery thing. With maybe Anglo/Saxon psyche versus Celtic/Viking.

 

[jasonbirder]

Does Cornwall need caving representation or just an access group.

I personally think it would be brilliant if Cornwall had an access group...
Wouldn't it be fab if they published a list of sites and how to access them 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is Access Management "newspeak"? At least it's a term that means something.

 

[complex]

At the risk of veering completely off topic, I'm wondering about this statement

The CNCC is by far the biggest regional council

According to the CNCC website, they have 37 member clubs - source http://www.cncc.org.uk/about/clubs.php
According to the CSCC website, they have 45 member clubs - source http://www.cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=about:member_clubs (including 4 listed as recently lapsed, so perhaps only 41)
According to the DCA website, they have 31 member clubs - source http://www.thedca.org.uk/caving-links/dca-member-clubs
According to the CCC website, they have 48 member clubs - source http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/member_clubs.html
The DCUC website doesnt list their member clubs, but this thread would indicate that they are much smaller than the other 4 regional councils (although perhaps they would consider listing their membership on their website at some point in the future?)

So of the 5 BCA regional councils, it appears to me that the CNCC is the 3rd largest, and that 4 out of the 5 are roughly the same size.

 

[Jason Pain]

A personal observation.

As a newbie to this forum I'm at a disadvantage, although I recognise some of the names of those contributing to this thread ( and other threads on the site) unless i can recognise someones pic or decode a user name i have no idea who I'm talking to.

Its easy to moan and be rude about something or somebody when you hide your identity.


I know the underground community is split many ways, over many many topics and we will never all agree,
Its so much easier when you can just walk up to a hole and go in without having to pay someone to cross land, have a key or permit. However unfortunately that's not the way of the world, i would much rather pay a small fee, get a key or permit and get underground than find the entrance hole filled with concrete.

We would all rather just go underground than talk about it.

Regional Councils when working properly should be working with all those involved to maintain or gain access, if a key or permit or leader system must be used, the process to get a key or permit should be as easy as possible.

Lastly any organisation is never gonna keep everyone happy however large or small. But if by working together it means progress towards a common goal can be achieved, that's got to be worth putting our differences to one side and talking.

To be clear these are my personal views and do not represent any group I'm involved in, those that know me will know I dont shy away from putting forward my view, whilst accepting others will also have a view, believe or not I can also be very diplomatic when I need to be.

 

[nearlywhite]

Its easy to moan and be rude about something or somebody when you hide your identity.

I hope I wasn't included in that :-[

It's a fair comment though, all I can say is hopefully the earlier posters engagement with the topic will translate into bums on seats for you at DCUC meetings. I'd also like to point out that when I suggested Devon being administered by the CSCC - I wasn't aware of the history (someone has discretely informed me of), though in retrospect I should have been able to guess/find that out.

Regional councils do more than just access (which we sometimes forget when travelling somewhere to sample caves) and building a caving community from the grass roots is part of that, something that a 'hub' might not have as a priority. Having more of an active web presence might help those who are less engaged with the mainstream caving scene come on board. Also having a small open party (like the BCA party...) might get some worms out of the woodwork, so to speak. You could call it the Subterrenus Dumnonia, a careful choice of words that only alienates the majority of the population

All the criticism is part of the can you carry doing that most of unappreciated jobs; caving politician. Which is even harder if you have to try and get mine explorers to co-operate, they're a little more anarchic than us cavers 

 

[Blakethwaite]

The mine exploring community isn't particularly anarchic. There are a minority on internet forums who would have you believe that is the case but the reality doesn't reflect that and clubs remain a large part of it. Posturing about boltcutters on forums is one thing but you can't really get away with that when you're trying  to get permission to dig a hole on somebody's land...

Where the mine exploring community does suffer dreadfully is in the lack of an equivalent body to the CNCC or suchlike. The mining areas of northern England are huge and widespread yet there's no legitimate access to vast parts of them & certainly no hope of obtaining permission to dig. Compare that to the Dales  where legitimate access to caves stands at what, 97% (from thin air...).

 

[Cartwright26]

Ive got to say that from disgusted from cornwalls/ cbc "hacksaw" manager comments come across as not giving a (insert descriptive expletive) about conservation or access agreements from land owners, i know in devon some caves are locked for conservation and that conservation shows just look at prid compared to bakers, dog hole to the dog extension, i also understand that mines are gated to stop kids, animals, idiots from entering and dropping down a pitch via an air rappel. Its not hard to get a key (just ask the access officer) and abide to landowners wishes/agreements instead of cutting locks

 

[Jason Pain]

I too hope his thread will equate to more bums on seats, its what we have been trying to do for some years nthemselves small group from the devon clubs and Pengelly have been working behind the scenes on many issues.  Working as dcuc has meant that together the group have acheived more.

We have the name Cornwall in our title and would love Cornish input to see how we can work together.

Many of those involved with DCUC would love someone else to take on a role, as in a small area the few find themselves with multiple roles in several groups as few come forward.

Lets keep things positive, grow a little then we can do the extras people would like to see,

 

[Simon Wilson]

Where the mine exploring community does suffer dreadfully is in the lack of an equivalent body to the CNCC or suchlike. The mining areas of northern England are huge and widespread yet there's no legitimate access to vast parts of them & certainly no hope of obtaining permission to dig. Compare that to the Dales  where legitimate access to caves stands at what, 97% (from thin air...).

Would you like to expand on this. I was under the impression that the CNCC covered mines as well as caves and that it covered the whole of northern Britain. You might want to start a new thread as it would be off topic.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Mine exploration interests are best managed by mine historians, and not necessarily by regional councils. I think NAMHO has, in the past, done an excellent job. I would hope they continue to do so. NAMHO would always be MY first port of call.

 

[Blakethwaite]

I'll stick my neck on the line and reply on this thread rather than in a new one as I suspect a similar feeling probably exists in Cornwall and elsewhere.

Re the CNCC: I think that whilst many cavers appear to consider that mine exploring is some sort of subset to caving, large proportions of the mining world would find that notion completely alien and perhaps abhorrent, viewing their own interest as being either purely in mines and mining history or as part of the larger Industrial Archaeology world. Consequently there would, rightly or wrongly, be a great deal of surprise and resistance to the notion that a caving council was getting involved in their affairs even if said council had taken it upon themselves to include mines within their remit.

In response to Peter's post, as far as I'm aware NAMHO play no role in regional access matters, nor do mining historians generally. It's clear from the caving community that having a strong regional body (see in particular the CNCC/DCA) experienced in dealing with such issues can work wonders and I personally can't see why such a body should not be utilised in areas (eg Teesdale, Allendales) where local activists have been unable to make headway.

Presumably having a strong regional council in Cornwall where access appears to be a come-and go affair must also be of some benefit?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Regional councils do much more than manage access. NAMHO is the best body to represent the specific interests of mine explorers. There are NAMHO guidelines in respect of accessing abandoned mines so although they do not get involved in specifics, they do provide advice.

 

[Blakethwaite]

I'm not at all certain that it needs to be one or the other.

The NAMHO guidelines state that a mine should not be visited without authority. Then they go on to advise what sort of things should be included when making agreements.

There is nothing within the guidelines or the NAMHO structure as a whole to progress matters when agreement cannot be reached.

The regional caving councils (who are funded in part by the BCA and thus by mining clubs within their areas) have access officers who have proven themselves capable of progressing matters in such circumstances. It seems a pity not to utilise them.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The various elements of advice provided by NAMHO have proved very useful over the years when discussing access at club level. The importance of having a respectable national representative body for mine exploration should not be underestimated.