Devon & Cornwall Underground Council

[Blakethwaite]

Nobody has made any suggestions to the contrary.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I am indicating why they would be my first port of call for any matter regarding abandoned mines before involving a regional council. My experience has been to use NAMHO advice and guidelines for managing the legalities of mine access, and CSCC for funding to have an entrance secured. CSCC provided the funding, awareness of mine matters from NAMHO facilitated the "framework", so to speak.

 

[Blakethwaite]

There are at least several NAMHO clubs in Cornwall & thereabouts as far as I'm aware yet (again rightly or wrongly) despite this it does seem to be a generally accepted view that access seems to be somewhat of a fiasco compared to other areas, with secrecy, territorial disputes and little or no protection from the whims of landowners and authorities being the name of the game.

Seems like having a strong regional council fighting your corner shouldn't be such a bad thing? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think you may be right, but it does require the right attitude at club level, and that is probably the most important factor. And if those clubs choose not to join a body that might serve their interests well, then they need to fall back on their own resources. It can be done, but might be harder to achieve.

 

[gus horsley]

I know I'm backtracking a bit here.  I used to be involved with DCUC but found that the commute and deteriorating health became prohibitive (I'm concentrating on working with the Geoconservation Group instead).  There is a different mindset in Cornwall, mainly due to DCUC being perceived as more concerned with caves than mines (not really true).  In addition, although there are a number of clubs and groups operating in Cornwall, like the ones already mentioned, the majority of people going underground in the county tend not to belong to established clubs and see themselves outside the remit of regional organisations which they see as beaurocratic at best and potentially interfering at worst.

By the way, if anyone intends visiting Cornwall I'm happy to pass on what information I have.

 

[fat pat]

we seem to be sliding into a debate about Cornwall , so I thought I might give a potted history about why in some Cornish camps we are so anti establishment and why the group know as the Carbis Bay Crew formed ..
The CBC was created by people ,included myself , who had been knocked back by other "proper"clubs and even meet hostility from the DCUC when attempted to form their own "proper" club.
So the CBC was forged out of a need to bring communication /info sharing to small cells of Cornish explorers disenfranchised by their experiences with clubs.
We created our own model, no committee, no monies, no insurance, no rules, share info/skill and no members ! yes there are no members, just a social media site through which trips are planned . We are currently very active and we have around 30 currently involved .
occasionally we visit other areas and we were very  impressed with the Yorkshire model ,find a hole-jump in-no bull....
our model is working ,we are growing ,we are having great fun and we do like to poke fun at those who stood in our way. So they created this attitude ,so like Dr Frankenstein ,they have to put up with the consequences.
pat moret ,name not hidden. 

 

[cap n chris]

Is it mostly take-take then or do you organise stuff which gives back to the wider scene? i.e. conservation, remediation works, clean-ups, donations of time effort or money to support projects, subscriptions to national/regional bodies etc.? I'm guessing CBC probably do their fair share but you might want to blow a trumpet about it so they don't just sound like takers.

 

[fat pat]

take take ??  sounds a little hostile?
why would want to give anything to national /regional bodies? We get nothing off anyone else and really want anything (maybe that's a Cornish thing)

we do provide trips ,training , we have helped with other groups digs , we have a pull tester that can be used to test local bolts, nine of the  CBCers are in the mine/rescue/rope rescue section of the local MR team and down as a resource for Cornwall Fire and Rescue service.
We have aided in digs in WW1 French ,Vimmy, tunnel systems and provided evacuation advice. We have discovered and shared our finds via Descent magazine AND we haven't demanded control over our finds .

so it appears we don't do conservation ,hand cash over(although we do when weve paid to gain access in devon and mendips),remediation works, clean ups??? mmm maybe youre right the CBC are just a bunch of freeloaders ...

 

[cap n chris]

.... actually they appear very sound - good to hear comprehensive summary of worthy stuff. Definitely do not sound like freeloaders.

 

[royfellows]

I dont wish to get involved in any argument but am genuinely curious.

Mr Pat, what exactly do you mean by "knocked back" relative to what you describe as "proper clubs" please?
I mean what exactly happens and why do you think it happens?

 

[fat pat]

knocked back =not replied to or told try again later..(patronising I know)
proper clubs ,, well we have been told we are not proper cavers/mine explorers so I guess that makes anything but us "proper". Seriously I mean clubs with committees ,meetings ,money and that. Currently we don't want to join any clubs now we have found another path.. and we seen how some other club operate ,just don't want that stuff, it all detracts from time actually spent pursuing the hobby ..
We will continue to poke fun at anyone who tries to put us back in the box but this is really in jest ...but there's nothing quite like winding up Devon folk..

 

[royfellows]

Thank you.
I think I know what you mean: "Dont call us we'll call you"
Its a shame attitudes have to become so polarized.

 

[Jason Pain]

Thanks for a little of the history Pat.

I cant comment on what has happened as I've only been DCUC Secretary for 2 years, and loosely involved on and off as Secretary for DevonSS for 7 years before that, for most of that time DCUC have just about been ticking along, working with the 2 Devon Clubs DevonSS & PlymouthCG along with representation from the Pengelly Trust and a few centres and instructors.

Although during that time things have not been perfect those involved have maintained the access to a number of Devon sites, by working with land owners and gained access to others by working with multiple interested parties. ( inc. Farmers, church commissioners,  councils)

Everyone will not agree, but for the clubs previously mentioned and local commercial groups DCUC has fulfilled a role within Devon.  And mainly left Cornwall alone.

PCG have a interest in Mines and operate into Cornwall, I can't comment on there activities as im not a member.


I would like to put an end to these tit for tat comments its not all helpful.

And invite everyone interested in the underground of Devon and Cornwall to the

DCUC AGM on Monday 23rd February 7:30pm at the Liskeard Town Hall

Personally I dont believe DCUC are looking to take over or force ourselves onto anybody, but are interested to explore how we might be able to support and represent (if appropriate) those interested in the underground of Devon and Cornwall.

Jason Pain.

 

[jasonbirder]

My experience of the Cornish scene compared to Yorkshire (or indeed anywhere else in the UK) is that if I asked for recommended trips in Yorkshire...I'd get a few classics recommended; perhaps...Alum Pot, Rowten, Swinsto or Lancaster to Wretched Rabbit etc...if I asked for something a little more challenging I might get pointed in the direction of Dowbergill or Penyghent Pot if I asked for an SRT classic I might get Juniper Gulf or Nick Pot mentioned...(just as for instances)
And similar (with different answers) for other area's in the UK - both Caves and Mines...
If I ask for recommended trips in Cornwall I get Cligga Head (once Bellan Mine got divulged...but I was sworn to secrecy)...and err thats it...If I ask for anything more challenging or deep/complex SRT...I get told to p*ss off...
Is it my deodorant...or is that everyones experience?

 

[royfellows]

Hi Jason, hope you are keeping well
Cornwall is different to other areas, and I soon picked this up as an outsider, in that a lot of people down there don't like us going underground. Its possibly a reflection of the trouble that goes on down there relative to property issues. A bit of Internet research will soon explain this, nice photo on my web of the disappearing Tesco carpark.

Consequently, cavers and mine explorers down there tend to keep things to themselves otherwise next thing a place gets blocked off. This has just happened.

Its a bit of a culture shock to anyone who has visited Nenthead or enjoyed the underground hospitality of my Cambrian Mines Trust buts that's the way it is.

 

[jasonbirder]

Hi Roy, hope you're keeping well!

I understand the situation with most Mine Explorers in Cornwall preferring to keep information to themselves for various reasons, culture of their mine exploring community, history of secrecy, concern over future access, a feeling people should find out for themselves etc etc...

I just feel its slightly unfair for people to talk about reluctance to engage with the wider caving/mine exploring community because "its too formal" because "they've been knocked back in the past" "its a distraction from getting underground" when everyone really knows it because they don't want to share information...

Its a far cry from most other area's!

 

[rrx]

As Roy has said Cornwall has always had a history of being highly secretive, unless you are in the right group, you struggle to find out anything, this is what we found out and set out to change, information about what's down here is so closely guarded by some as the feel that the mines belong to them and how dare anyone go down without permission, because we are dealing with 99% mines aswell we have a situation unlike the rest of the UK in that all the sites are technically owned by someone and most of the time its impossible to find who.
As a group we are active in finding new sites, recording information and publishing, just look at our latest find on the facebook page, I get alot of emails asking for info on mines down here and what's worth visiting and will always do my best to point people in the right direction and if we are about sorting out trips and soon our SRT day which is already looking to be well attended
The other approach we take is light hearted which always seems to get the serious people all upset, we have a gating officer, a hacksaw officer, a press relations officer, numerous models, bolting official, gas axe officer and the list goes on.....to those that are reading this n horror they are all joke titles...well apart from the knitting officer, that's very important, we don't go round removing locks but the amount of people that sit up and take notice when you say you have a gas axe officer and assume we spend all our time cutting gates, what do you think we are? A caving club? We will be digging our own entrances soon! If you don't like the fun get off the internet!
We have members who have tried to join certain devon clubs and been told no, I have personally approached a few and never heard a thing back, most of the clubs in Cornwall still rely on royal mail for running and heaven forbid anyone mentions going underground at geevor/botallack and saying that the entrances are at the bottom of th cliffs the post count on the st just mines research forum skyrockets (yes they have made it onto the internet, no your not allowed to read any posts on it as its well hidden, I'm sure i will be talked about on it again now lmao)
If people want information  the ask away, we will help and provide as much as we can, we are dragging Cornwall underground exploration into the 21st century kicking and screaming and if we didn't people down here would be holding it back in the 18th century
Some of the best trips in Cornwall are SRT ones which does limit people but we have done trips taking none srt people underground with no problem with safe and simple systems
Places down here will inevitably get sealed at some point if people are stupid in them, but it wont stop us informing people what's about

 

[tamarmole]

Hi Jason, hope you are keeping well
Cornwall is different to other areas, and I soon picked this up as an outsider, in that a lot of people down there don't like us going underground. Its possibly a reflection of the trouble that goes on down there relative to property issues. A bit of Internet research will soon explain this, nice photo on my web of the disappearing Tesco carpark.

Consequently, cavers and mine explorers down there tend to keep things to themselves otherwise next thing a place gets blocked off. This has just happened.

Its a bit of a culture shock to anyone who has visited Nenthead or enjoyed the underground hospitality of my Cambrian Mines Trust buts that's the way it is.

Secrecy is certainly a feature of mine exploration in the west.  This is due in no small part to the nature of land /mineral ownership down here which is dominated by the Duchy of Cornwall who are completely anti mine exploration.  Most access is "informal"; attempting to formalise it could open a can of worms better left undisturbed.  On the whole most active mine explorers seem to be happy with the status quo, the thinking being that informal access is better than none at all.

I am a Tamar Valley based mine explorer with a foot in both camps being a member of two formal, BCA insured groups but I am also active as a "freebooter" exploring mines with various unaffiliated bods.  On the whole I prefer the more anarchic freebooting approach.  I don't tend to broadcast what I am doing.    Apart from the reasons already cited conservation is a major issue for me. Having seen too many mines ransacked by mineral collectors, souvenir hunters and general tossers I play my cards close to my chest. 

 

[rrx]

A quick side note aswell we have links on our site directing to all the main caving clubs, dcuc and numerous others and have done for the last 3 years, if you would like to be linked please drop me an email with your site

 

[Bottlebank]

Sounds to me like you lot need to get around a fireside table in a warm pub, probably one that straddles the Devon/Cornwall border or perhaps somewhere neutral, like Ingleton, get a few pints in and have a good chat