rhychydwr1
Active member
jasonbirder said:
Yes, I think so. There is a book on the Caves of Cornwall so there are no secrets in that direction.
Devon & Cornwall Underground Council
- Thread starter Andy Sparrow
- Start date
Yes, I think so. There is a book on the Caves of Cornwall so there are no secrets in that direction.
Cornish srt trip, wheal Devonshire , 5 or 6 rebelays , 1 deviation . 95m of rope required to the sea cave below . I put the write up along with the grid ref in Descent magazine about 2 years ago. Also covered in Descent by the CBC; Wheal Mary, Wheal Luna in, Wheal Mirth, wheal Magdalen and Perran St George will (I think ) be in February's addition .
Yes we are cagey about many trips mainly because we shouldn't be there and like Roy has mentioned we lost a mine recently because "attention" brought to the site .
Yes we are cagey about many trips mainly because we shouldn't be there and like Roy has mentioned we lost a mine recently because "attention" brought to the site .
NewStuff
New member
Peter Burgess said:
I'll beg to differ.
A significant number of Mine historians have an annoying (but thankfully, not universal) attitude of "you can't go in there, it's historical".
If they were in control, no-one would see much of anything apart from a few well-trodden "tourist" paths. Empire building is still an issue, and from what I read around the intarwebs, not just in my neck of the woods (N.Wales).
Peter Burgess
New member
There is far far more to mine history and exploration than access. If only access WAS the only thing to be concerned about!
NewStuff
New member
Peter Burgess said:
Indeed. I have yet to meet a single, yes single, Mine explorer who *doesn't* have an interest in the history of the places we go to. It's far less of a "sport" than caving, more like a physical history lesson. Mine exploration doesn't have anywhere near the amount of bullshit to deal with that Caving does, and long may it stay that way.
Peter Burgess
New member
Which is why I said :
Peter Burgess said:
droid
Active member
Agreed NewStuff.
Access to mines seems far more 'club controlled' than caves, yet access isn't such a faff: contact the club concerned. Job done.
If you get a 'chaperone' it'll be someone that effectively acts as an interpreter of the artifacts, not a minder as such.
And you tend not to get the self-appointed 'big cheeses'
Access to mines seems far more 'club controlled' than caves, yet access isn't such a faff: contact the club concerned. Job done.
If you get a 'chaperone' it'll be someone that effectively acts as an interpreter of the artifacts, not a minder as such.
And you tend not to get the self-appointed 'big cheeses'
NewStuff
New member
droid said:Agreed NewStuff.
Access to mines seems far more 'club controlled' than caves, yet access isn't such a faff: contact the club concerned. Job done.
If you get a 'chaperone' it'll be someone that effectively acts as an interpreter of the artifacts, not a minder as such.
And you tend not to get the self-appointed 'big cheeses'
A few notable exceptions (isn't there always), but in this neck of the woods, there may be light at the end of the tunnel. If we can sort things out after some of the shitstorms that have happened, there's hope for everyone elsewhere! On the whole though, I'll agree wholeheartedly. I would like to see less of the *mandatory* chaperoning for experienced explorers (Fair enough for newbies).
Peter Burgess
New member
Heading vaguely back in the direction of the topic, my last visit to Cornwall, which was actually a very long time ago, most of our visits were chaperoned, as you put it, and I would not have wanted it any other way. Thank you, Kevin Baker.
1) we got to see mines we would never have found in a month of searching.
2) we got to see places underground which we would not have bothered to check out, but with the local knowledge we had a far more enjoyable trip.
3) we got to meet some really nice local explorers, and is that not a great part of the activity, to meet others, exchange stories, knowledge, build trust and understanding?
Cornwall for some up country folk can be a very boring place underground, unless you meet up and ask to be "chaperoned".
I like to think I reciprocate when asked to arrange visits to places I know.
"My" local mines are really uninteresting places, until you get under the skin of them, and know the subtle and vulnerable features, and it is my pleasure to share this with anyone who asks. Anyone unaware of the sites is likely to:
1) walk on centuries old imprints in the floor, totally oblivious of what they have destroyed.
2) never see the subtle features that have taken me 35 years to appreciate, and I still uncover more facts about places I have been in many hundreds of times.
3) be totally unaware of the places where we know the ceiling is less than friendly.
1) we got to see mines we would never have found in a month of searching.
2) we got to see places underground which we would not have bothered to check out, but with the local knowledge we had a far more enjoyable trip.
3) we got to meet some really nice local explorers, and is that not a great part of the activity, to meet others, exchange stories, knowledge, build trust and understanding?
Cornwall for some up country folk can be a very boring place underground, unless you meet up and ask to be "chaperoned".
I like to think I reciprocate when asked to arrange visits to places I know.
"My" local mines are really uninteresting places, until you get under the skin of them, and know the subtle and vulnerable features, and it is my pleasure to share this with anyone who asks. Anyone unaware of the sites is likely to:
1) walk on centuries old imprints in the floor, totally oblivious of what they have destroyed.
2) never see the subtle features that have taken me 35 years to appreciate, and I still uncover more facts about places I have been in many hundreds of times.
3) be totally unaware of the places where we know the ceiling is less than friendly.
NewStuff
New member
Peter Burgess said:
If I ask to be chaperoned, that's great, no issue at all. The same applies to my neck of the woods. If someone wants a "tour guide", someone will endeavour to accommodate them.
But you are, yet-a-bloody-gain, insinuating that anyone unchaperoned will trample stuff and generally not give a shit. Give it a rest eh? If the ceiling is iffy, we tell people about it (Cambrian slate mine springs to mind at the moment... the answer is "anywhere within a couple of chambers of daylight"). If we have surveys, we offer them. It's not as if we shove them in at the end of a pointy stick and tell them to get on with it.
Peter Burgess
New member
I am not trying to make this personal, and there is no need for you to either. We are, after all, a couple of laid back friendly mine explorers. Mines vary enormously in terms of how obvious features or risks are. The most experienced of explorers would be completely unaware of the features and risks I write about. You have to take my word for that. As far as trampling goes, we recently re-entered a few tens of metres of quarry gallery last accessible 400 - 500 years ago. Seeing what was still visible on the floor in there, and knowing that the ten miles of galleries in the system may well once have been the same but are now trampled to near oblivion, makes us realise what still survives is enormously valuable.
An unchaperoned group would (a) never see and appreciate what little is left and (b) run the risk of destroying what can still be seen. I can assure you, that you could be staring directly at some animal hoof prints and not even realise what you were looking at. And these prints are only ten minutes from the entrance. It astounds me that they are still there, and I really wish I had had the chance to see the place before it became a cavers' playground, for some years.
Perhaps if your slate mines were three or four times the age they actually are, and there was only one such place, and it was a precious rare survival from late medieval or Tudor times, you might take a different approach? I am not saying places simply need protection from malicious folk who deliberately spoil places, but they certainly do from the well-meaning and very careful explorer who simply is unaware of what they might do without noticing. This underlined phrase is the important thing. I imagine this does not apply in many mines. And I think that the vast majority of "well-meaning and very careful" explorers would understand that, and be happy to accept the argument. After all, if they didn't accept the argument, would it not make them less than appreciative, knowing that simply on a matter of principle, they are prepared to risk spoiling a place because they don't know what to look for? I am certain I have unknowingly walked on undisturbed features. Now I think I know what to look for, I can guide others on the right path where it matters.
In a cave, one might argue that the list of sensitive features is quite limited. Formations, undisturbed sediments, bats, bones, and that's more or less it. This is not the case in mines, and I would never pretend that I knew everything there is to look out for in a site I didn't know.
The added "plus" factor to meeting groups and showing them round is I get to do another trip, with great people, and I regularly see things I have not spotted before despite my many visits.
I must emphasise again, it is not the damage and not give a shit brigade I am talking about, its the damage without even being aware of the damage that we can do something about.
If you reply to this and insist (as you have done previously) on distorting my meaning again, I will not bother to respond!
An unchaperoned group would (a) never see and appreciate what little is left and (b) run the risk of destroying what can still be seen. I can assure you, that you could be staring directly at some animal hoof prints and not even realise what you were looking at. And these prints are only ten minutes from the entrance. It astounds me that they are still there, and I really wish I had had the chance to see the place before it became a cavers' playground, for some years.
Perhaps if your slate mines were three or four times the age they actually are, and there was only one such place, and it was a precious rare survival from late medieval or Tudor times, you might take a different approach? I am not saying places simply need protection from malicious folk who deliberately spoil places, but they certainly do from the well-meaning and very careful explorer who simply is unaware of what they might do without noticing. This underlined phrase is the important thing. I imagine this does not apply in many mines. And I think that the vast majority of "well-meaning and very careful" explorers would understand that, and be happy to accept the argument. After all, if they didn't accept the argument, would it not make them less than appreciative, knowing that simply on a matter of principle, they are prepared to risk spoiling a place because they don't know what to look for? I am certain I have unknowingly walked on undisturbed features. Now I think I know what to look for, I can guide others on the right path where it matters.
In a cave, one might argue that the list of sensitive features is quite limited. Formations, undisturbed sediments, bats, bones, and that's more or less it. This is not the case in mines, and I would never pretend that I knew everything there is to look out for in a site I didn't know.
The added "plus" factor to meeting groups and showing them round is I get to do another trip, with great people, and I regularly see things I have not spotted before despite my many visits.
I must emphasise again, it is not the damage and not give a shit brigade I am talking about, its the damage without even being aware of the damage that we can do something about.
If you reply to this and insist (as you have done previously) on distorting my meaning again, I will not bother to respond!
NewStuff
New member
There's so many problems with your suppositions that I'm not going to bother, it's laughable and you demonstrate zero capacity get over your terminally low opinion of other explorers. You have your opinion, I have mine, we're never going to agree. Oh, laid back is not usually a term applied to myself. I'm exactly the same in real life as on here, outspoken, "offensive" and obnoxious. I speak it as I see it.
Hopefully Cornwall can make some headway, whatever direction that may be, and have a better access system for all concerned, not just those that the "inner circles" deem to be sufficiently brown nosed.
Hopefully Cornwall can make some headway, whatever direction that may be, and have a better access system for all concerned, not just those that the "inner circles" deem to be sufficiently brown nosed.
The whole underground access thing, be it caves or mines, is getting beyond a joke at the moment. Its getting to a point where the days of waking up, grabbing your lamp and heading underground on a whim are under threat from the "you cant go underground,you have no insurence/not in our club/dont wear warmbacs/look funny/not a local with fingers in many old mines".
I used to have BCA insurence, back when the indivudual thing was first introduced. Had it for 2 years...did i benefit from...did i heck as like. Mainly got it to go on one trip in particular, as i had to have it, going into the mine without it makes you evil. Soooooo i spent the money, turned up for the trip, presented my shiney BCA card and was told "Nah, dont need that mate, you'll be fine without it". Not had it since, been to laods of places, squeezed thru many holes in gates etc no problems.
Edit: Ignore the second paragraph, was getting my rants and threads crossed!. I'll leave it here anyway.
Chaparoned...... surely a few words to describe the horrors that await us would sufice.
I used to have BCA insurence, back when the indivudual thing was first introduced. Had it for 2 years...did i benefit from...did i heck as like. Mainly got it to go on one trip in particular, as i had to have it, going into the mine without it makes you evil. Soooooo i spent the money, turned up for the trip, presented my shiney BCA card and was told "Nah, dont need that mate, you'll be fine without it". Not had it since, been to laods of places, squeezed thru many holes in gates etc no problems.
Edit: Ignore the second paragraph, was getting my rants and threads crossed!. I'll leave it here anyway.
Chaparoned...... surely a few words to describe the horrors that await us would sufice.
Peter Burgess
New member
There's little more to add, except:
Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. --Rev. Denny Brake
Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. --Rev. Denny Brake
droid
Active member
In character I am not as laid back as Peter, not as exciteable as NewStuff (until someone winds me up.... ) so I can see the merits of both arguments.
The last 'chaperoned' trip I did was Parys Mine. The chaperoning was pretty light, the information useful, the warnings of delicate/hard to see features was timely and useful. So there were no problems.
However: if I'd been down there a few times, and knew my way round, it'd be nice to be just left to it....
Horses for courses. You can't really generalise on this sort of thing.
) so I can see the merits of both arguments.The last 'chaperoned' trip I did was Parys Mine. The chaperoning was pretty light, the information useful, the warnings of delicate/hard to see features was timely and useful. So there were no problems.
However: if I'd been down there a few times, and knew my way round, it'd be nice to be just left to it....
Horses for courses. You can't really generalise on this sort of thing.
Peter Burgess
New member
Correct, Droid.
jasonbirder
Member
For all the issues and ding-dongs about Cave Access?we generally have it pretty good?and it looks like it?s moving in a positive direction?
The overwhelming majority of Caves are documented in the public domain and their access information available to everyone (even if that information is No Official Access nudge-nudge-wink-wink)
Similarly in many areas of the country exactly the same applies to Mines?
What makes people sit up and question is when a region stands out from the norm?
People have an issue with Devon & Cornwall because there are literally hundreds of accessible systems that are valid trips?and yet the information out there is minimal?compared to the information about Wales/Peaks/Nent etc etc which have similar numbers of systems?whilst I am sure people will be keen to say oh but OUR area is a unique situation?the chances are it really isn?t?and the uniqueness boils down to the culture and people there?
Similarly with Led (Or chaperoned trips) there are a few mine or cave systems that because of their fragility or uniqueness can justify that system?but it is a small number?and nobody wants it to creep upwards. For the majority of systems?a sensible mix of taping and education suffices?if you have an area with a small number of systems and comparatively lots of trips that require leaders?the law of averages says it?s not the systems that?s unique?merely the people involved with them?
The overwhelming majority of Caves are documented in the public domain and their access information available to everyone (even if that information is No Official Access nudge-nudge-wink-wink)
Similarly in many areas of the country exactly the same applies to Mines?
What makes people sit up and question is when a region stands out from the norm?
People have an issue with Devon & Cornwall because there are literally hundreds of accessible systems that are valid trips?and yet the information out there is minimal?compared to the information about Wales/Peaks/Nent etc etc which have similar numbers of systems?whilst I am sure people will be keen to say oh but OUR area is a unique situation?the chances are it really isn?t?and the uniqueness boils down to the culture and people there?
Similarly with Led (Or chaperoned trips) there are a few mine or cave systems that because of their fragility or uniqueness can justify that system?but it is a small number?and nobody wants it to creep upwards. For the majority of systems?a sensible mix of taping and education suffices?if you have an area with a small number of systems and comparatively lots of trips that require leaders?the law of averages says it?s not the systems that?s unique?merely the people involved with them?
Blakethwaite
New member
I think the main problem there Jason is that you are taking the view that mine-exploring/history and caving are pretty much the same thing which they are not. Sport trips may be the mainstay of the caving world but that is simply not the case in the mine world bar a very tiny minority of trips.
Guidebooks for people to follow blindly and tick lists of must do through-trips, Peak aside, belong almost entirely to the caving world. There isn't a mine version of NFTFH quite simply because that is not what mine-exploring is about.
There are billions of guidebooks out there for mines but they have rather more mundane names along the lines of "The Mines and Mineral Tramways of Knotty Ash" which people have long since used as a basis for getting out and gaining good local knowledge of not just how to rig a through trip through Swinsto for the 49th time that year... but also to understand the industrial & socio-economic history of a particular site and region.
Guidebooks for people to follow blindly and tick lists of must do through-trips, Peak aside, belong almost entirely to the caving world. There isn't a mine version of NFTFH quite simply because that is not what mine-exploring is about.
There are billions of guidebooks out there for mines but they have rather more mundane names along the lines of "The Mines and Mineral Tramways of Knotty Ash" which people have long since used as a basis for getting out and gaining good local knowledge of not just how to rig a through trip through Swinsto for the 49th time that year... but also to understand the industrial & socio-economic history of a particular site and region.
Peter Burgess
New member
Nail on the head there, Blakethwaite.
