DYO

[cap n chris]

PeteHall has repeatedly asked why the current un-gated second entrance (the resurgence) is not a problem insurance-wise, but why a second un-gated entrance would be.

Wild guess: cave divers are a different breed from random members of the public (aka cavers) as they are highly trained and capable technicians whereas the latter can be a danger to themselves.

If the showcave owners want to deny caver access, for whatever reason, they can and they will. It wouldn't be the first time.

Presumably not easily done with regard to divers though. Your turn.

 

[MarkS]

PeteHall has repeatedly asked why the current un-gated second entrance (the resurgence) is not a problem insurance-wise, but why a second un-gated entrance would be.

Wild guess: cave divers are a different breed from random members of the public (aka cavers) as they are highly trained and capable technicians whereas the latter can be a danger to themselves.

See reply #46, hence my question:

...it makes no difference to the insurance issue whether a potential second entrance is beyond a sump or wherever; if it is opened, insurance cover will be withdrawn until the grille at the end of showcave is locked.

Although Rhys has provided a possible reason.

 

[Alex]

Quote from: Cap'n Chris on Today at 02:00:56 pm
Quote from: MarkS on Today at 12:11:50 pm
PeteHall has repeatedly asked why the current un-gated second entrance (the resurgence) is not a problem insurance-wise, but why a second un-gated entrance would be.

Wild guess: cave divers are a different breed from random members of the public (aka cavers) as they are highly trained and capable technicians whereas the latter can be a danger to themselves.

See reply #46, hence my question.

Quote from: Tony_B on Yesterday at 10:05:11 pm
...it makes no difference to the insurance issue whether a potential second entrance is beyond a sump or wherever; if it is opened, insurance cover will be withdrawn until the grille at the end of showcave is locked.

Although Rhys has provided a possible reason.

Then why is a second entrance beyond a sump such a problem? Unless as others say it's not an insurance thing after-all and as usual with Wales the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.

A second dry entrance would solve the Welsh weather issue, if it was not beyond a sump and then it would not matter if the Showcave locked their entrance.

However, I will say the diggers should still get the SSSI permission and the surface landowners (which it appears they had originally??) to avoid breaking the law.

 

[Tony_B]

Since I went out this morning several others have stepped in with sensible responses. Particular thanks to Rhys for his two posts that have saved me answering those correspondents.

Look, I could spell things out on here more than I have, but it would only be pouring petrol on to flames where some of you are concerned. Read back through my previous contributions. I reiterate once more: there are issues surrounding the dig at Nant y Gwared that do not apply to digs elsewhere, or, for that matter, to the sump in the resurgence.

The insurance issue has been highlighted by the article in Darkness Below, but the DYO management have been clear on this for a long time, so it's not news. But you can be sure that it is not the only aspect of this whole sorry episode that troubles the showcave owner.

One more thing that I ask contributors to be aware of: the management at DYO are all too aware that this thread exists and have seen everything that is written. Whatever your views, please respect the fact that most of the caving community quite like having access to a cave as wonderful as DYO, and would be very unhappy were that access to be lost. Trust me that we have come very close to the edge on this before. Before you click 'post' on your next words of wisdom, just reflect on that. Thanks.   
 

 

[ogofmole]

Whatever your views, please respect the fact that most of the caving community quite like having access to a cave as wonderful as DYO, and would be very unhappy were that access to be lost. Trust me that we have come very close to the edge on this before. Before you click 'post' on your next words of wisdom, just reflect on that. Thanks.   
 

Very well put, Ashford has allowed easy access to us cavers who just enjoy caving.

 

[PeteHall]

I think the real issue here causing the heated discussions has nothing to do with access to DYO. It is the blatantly biased reporting on darknessbelow.

The article has deliberately stirred up a non-current issue, claiming access is likely to be lost due to insurance restrictions.

Credible arguments have been made to address the insurance issues and have gone unanswered, adding to the speculation that this is not the real issue for access. Rhys has since confirmed that insurance is a red herring.

In summary, DYO management have their own reasons to oppose a particular dig that may enter their business premises, which seems fair enough. The unnamed administrator at darknessbelow has taken the opportunity to scare-monger and stir trouble, likely to cause people to say/do things they regret.

The real jeopardy for access at DYO is the inaccurate and irresponsible reporting of an apparent non-issue by darknessbelow.

The anti-access brigade seem hell bent on creating access problems, presumably so that they can say 'I told you so' 

 

[Damo]

Whatever your views, please respect the fact that most of the caving community quite like having access to a cave as wonderful as DYO, and would be very unhappy were that access to be lost. Trust me that we have come very close to the edge on this before. Before you click 'post' on your next words of wisdom, just reflect on that. Thanks.   
 

Very well put, Ashford has allowed easy access to us cavers who just enjoy caving.

I completely agree with this. I personally have never had any issues with the access arrangements in place and the showcaves staff have always been very welcoming and helpful. To lose this access would be very sad indeed.

 

[Rhys]

Rhys has since confirmed that insurance is a red herring.

I haven't actually confirmed anything. I said "probably". And it' s just my opinion. I'm not in a position to confirm anything. I'm not involved in any way.

 

[PeteHall]

Rhys has since confirmed that insurance is a red herring.

I haven't actually confirmed anything. I said "probably". And it' s just my opinion. I'm not in a position to confirm anything. I'm not involved in any way.

Sorry Rhys, my mistake. You suggested insurance was probably a red herring.

Tony's later post suggests that this is correct (and I assume he knows), however there is no specific confirmation either way.

 

[alastairgott]

If you don't want to lock it, then the Derbyshire Key is always an option?

Have a section of Bar which can slide till it reaches a thread, use this as a bolt. When the bolt is shut you can then tighten it up, if there's a square in the grill cut out to allow use on either side it'll work quite nicely. Welsh cavers don't typically carry a spanner, so you've got a key that works most of the time. (just make sure it's not the same size as a scaffold spanner! will ensure maximal annoyance...).

 

[Joel Corrigan]

I don't want to get involved with this thread as my own experiences with the committee & the person who gave the orders is somewhat more negative than most but I did have a message earlier from Ethel.Bangrod who has posted twice on the site & is apparently the editor-in-chief of Dankness Below. This read:

"Hi Joel, What's the deal with Richard Frost being banned?"

I refused to give any explanation to anyone I didn't know & I can barely remember the details anyway but worth being aware of this.  No idea who Ethel is but he/she knew enough about caving in the area to ask me for information...

 

[droid]

I think the real issue here causing the heated discussions has nothing to do with access to DYO. It is the blatantly biased reporting on darknessbelow.

The 'stirring up' has taken place on here, not Darkness Below which *isn't* a discussion forum.

As usual, people have adopted entrenched positions and refuse to see any merit in the 'opposition' argument.


Deja vu.....all over again. CRoW, Draenen et al.

 

[Tony_B]

I don't want to get involved with this thread as my own experiences with the committee & the person who gave the orders is somewhat more negative than most but I did have a message earlier from Ethel.Bangrod who has posted twice on the site & is apparently the editor-in-chief of Dankness Below. This read:

"Hi Joel, What's the deal with Richard Frost being banned?"

I refused to give any explanation to anyone I didn't know & I can barely remember the details anyway but worth being aware of this.  No idea who Ethel is but he/she knew enough about caving in the area to ask me for information...

If Ethel.Bangrod would care to contact me I will be happy to give some details, providing I can see a constructive point in doing so. I was on the CAP at the time that he was banned, but I hasten to point out that this was a unilateral decision by the showcave management and not one that was discussed in a panel meeting, although I think we all knew it was coming. It would in any case be interesting to talk to someone from Dankness Below, because I don't believe the spoof news article has done anyone any favours here. It wasn't even funny. Maybe a subscription to Private Eye might help them understand satire.

 

[Badlad]

Dankness and Darkness Below aside I was just thinking what a well behaved discussion this has been in the main.  Contributors have made valid points and they have been answered in a patient and courteous manner.  Many thanks to Tony B for persevering with the many questions those with genuine interest have posed.  In the past, threads of this nature have gone sour, often fuelled by the same few individuals.  This thread goes to show that sensible discussions can be had on quite emotive topics if people try to be civil to one another.  Long may it live.

Believe it or not I was a leader for DYO myself in the 1980's and had many many trips down there.  Even found some new stuff once.  Great cave and i'm sure that one day someone will find a whole lot more.

 

[Scrappycaver]

Dankness and Darkness Below aside I was just thinking what a well behaved discussion this has been in the main.  Contributors have made valid points and they have been answered in a patient and courteous manner.  Many thanks to Tony B for persevering with the many questions those with genuine interest have posed.  In the past, threads of this nature have gone sour, often fuelled by the same few individuals.  This thread goes to show that sensible discussions can be had on quite emotive topics if people try to be civil to one another.  Long may it live.

Believe it or not I was a leader for DYO myself in the 1980's and had many many trips down there.  Even found some new stuff once.  Great cave and i'm sure that one day someone will find a whole lot more.

If we're allowed !
I was banned after electing a friend as conservation officer..He then said he could no longer do this post while I was still caving in dyo. ..!! Some friend. Shortly after 3 others left over I'll feelings. I was banned for 5years which  has passed.


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[Rhys]

So Scrappycaver is Richard Frost?

 

[Scrappycaver]

So Scrappycaver is Richard Frost?

Yes..it seems be about my life story this evening. I don't think anymore needs to be said regarding the 5year ban but rather the info came from me . Tony seems to have taken the dyo subject on and explained it all v well and dragging up the past won't change matters. Like Tony said , the panel didn't have a say in it and it was Ashfords decision which I accept.

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[Ogof anghenfil]

So 'Scrappycaver', you said you had a five year ban fron Dan Yr Ogof, does that mean you are allowed back in?

 

[Scrappycaver]

So 'Scrappycaver', you said you had a five year ban fron Dan Yr Ogof, does that mean you are allowed back in?

Depends on whether Santa thinks I've been a good boy this year !

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[cap n chris]

Who started this thread, remind me ;-)