DYO

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2xw

Active member
Care to share which parts of the draft were ignored by DB? Seems a bit of an accusation... Have DB corrected them?

Finest and best preserved in Europe is a bit of a stretch given the place is full of fibreglass models and drilled holes for Christmas lights, but I guess you're obliged to say that...!
 

Scrappycaver

New member
Tony_B said:
I am the current Wardens' Sec for the DYO Conservation Advisory Panel. It's time for a bit a calm and reason on this thread, please. There's so much misinformation and misrepresentation in all the above, so here is the situation:

The article in Darkness Below was initiated by the showcave management. One of the cavers who sits on the CAP was invited to review the original draft, and it seems as though his suggestions were largely ignored. He has since received something by way of apology.

Nothing in the article is news to anyone who has been into DYO in the last couple of years; the metal grille that has been installed at the end of showcave has beside it a notice making it clear that if a second entrance is opened then cavers will lose access through the showcave. End of story. It matters not whether any potential second entrance is beyond sumps or wherever - the simple fact is that the showcave's insurers see a second entrance as an open back door and will withdraw cover. Will the second entrance provide 'better' access? Well if you do have to dive the Mazeways sumps to get into the rest of the cave then I doubt it, but in any case a dig shored with - as is common - bread crates could hardly be said to provide 'better access' than that currently available. 

The situation with Tunnel (Cathedral) Cave is different. There has always been a locked gate at the end of Cathedral Cave that prevents unauthorised access from the wild cave and in order to achieve a through-trip one needed a key to this and permission from the showcave. Although through-trips are still technically possible they rarely happen.

Let's be clear about the situation with the unauthorised dig that has caused all this. It was an illegal dig on an SSSI, that was a PDO (Potentially Damaging Operation) for which no permission was sought or given. The person held responsible was the landowner - that's the law. She narrowly avoided prosecution. Just stop and consider that for a minute: a rural landowner prosecuted for the actions of cavers. Imagine the harm that might have caused, nationwide, to landowner relations and cave access.

On the Facebook page on which the Darkness Below article was shared, some have questioned why this dig was a problem when digs on the Black Mountain, at the numerous DYO sinks, are not. Several reasons: first, as described above, this was an illegal operation on an SSSI. Second, the sinks are so far beyond the end of the known cave that it would need a breakthrough of unimaginable good fortune for any of the associated digs to get anywhere near the existing cave passage. It's not going to happen. And third, the SSSI dig was directly above the known cave, and was a declared intention to create a personal 'back door' to DYO by an aggrieved caver whose permit for the cave had been withdrawn.

Much of the land above DYO and beyond is owned by Welsh Water and administered on their behalf by the Brecon Beacons NPA. They are amenable to digging activity if permission is sought; a group of us are currently working on a dig on the Black Mountain which was granted permission; we submitted a reasonable proposal and agreed to perfectly fair terms and conditions. The actions of irresponsible diggers - 'freedom fighters' to some of you - jeopardise the long and harmonious relationship that has long existed between cavers/diggers and the BBNPA and NRW as well, of course, as the continued access to DYO granted by the showcave.     

The management of the showcave have always been supportive of the efforts of diggers, both inside and outside DYO. Sensible projects within the cave have been given permission, even some very close to the showcave itself. Those of us that dig on the mountain above DYO are allowed to use the car park, free of charge, a privilege which is not extended to walkers. In the past the showcave funded the purchase of timber for a dig on the mountain, and the owner has always been genuinely interested in, and supportive of, digging work that might find the missing miles that must exist between the known cave and the various sinks. What he won't put up with is sustained attempts to create personal access to the cave by an irresponsible minority.

As the Darkness Below article makes clear, cavers have long enjoyed access to DYO, which is one of the finest and best-preserved cave systems in Europe. The Warden system exists for the peace of mind of the showcave owners and has long served to protect the cave. Access is readily available to anyone that wants it (with one or two notable exceptions) and by far the most restrictive aspect of entry to the cave is the Welsh weather.

Just be careful what you wish for.       



           
I think you will find that DYO gave permission then called the police. The NRW did not get involved and no charges or reccomendations were made to any party, In fact the showcave had some explaining to do by not disclosing the concent letter.
9c499b87d1857cab5be85daface60f09.jpg


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Scrappycaver

New member
Scrappycaver said:
Tony_B said:
I am the current Wardens' Sec for the DYO Conservation Advisory Panel. It's time for a bit a calm and reason on this thread, please. There's so much misinformation and misrepresentation in all the above, so here is the situation:

The article in Darkness Below was initiated by the showcave management. One of the cavers who sits on the CAP was invited to review the original draft, and it seems as though his suggestions were largely ignored. He has since received something by way of apology.

Nothing in the article is news to anyone who has been into DYO in the last couple of years; the metal grille that has been installed at the end of showcave has beside it a notice making it clear that if a second entrance is opened then cavers will lose access through the showcave. End of story. It matters not whether any potential second entrance is beyond sumps or wherever - the simple fact is that the showcave's insurers see a second entrance as an open back door and will withdraw cover. Will the second entrance provide 'better' access? Well if you do have to dive the Mazeways sumps to get into the rest of the cave then I doubt it, but in any case a dig shored with - as is common - bread crates could hardly be said to provide 'better access' than that currently available. 

The situation with Tunnel (Cathedral) Cave is different. There has always been a locked gate at the end of Cathedral Cave that prevents unauthorised access from the wild cave and in order to achieve a through-trip one needed a key to this and permission from the showcave. Although through-trips are still technically possible they rarely happen.

Let's be clear about the situation with the unauthorised dig that has caused all this. It was an illegal dig on an SSSI, that was a PDO (Potentially Damaging Operation) for which no permission was sought or given. The person held responsible was the landowner - that's the law. She narrowly avoided prosecution. Just stop and consider that for a minute: a rural landowner prosecuted for the actions of cavers. Imagine the harm that might have caused, nationwide, to landowner relations and cave access.

On the Facebook page on which the Darkness Below article was shared, some have questioned why this dig was a problem when digs on the Black Mountain, at the numerous DYO sinks, are not. Several reasons: first, as described above, this was an illegal operation on an SSSI. Second, the sinks are so far beyond the end of the known cave that it would need a breakthrough of unimaginable good fortune for any of the associated digs to get anywhere near the existing cave passage. It's not going to happen. And third, the SSSI dig was directly above the known cave, and was a declared intention to create a personal 'back door' to DYO by an aggrieved caver whose permit for the cave had been withdrawn.

Much of the land above DYO and beyond is owned by Welsh Water and administered on their behalf by the Brecon Beacons NPA. They are amenable to digging activity if permission is sought; a group of us are currently working on a dig on the Black Mountain which was granted permission; we submitted a reasonable proposal and agreed to perfectly fair terms and conditions. The actions of irresponsible diggers - 'freedom fighters' to some of you - jeopardise the long and harmonious relationship that has long existed between cavers/diggers and the BBNPA and NRW as well, of course, as the continued access to DYO granted by the showcave.     

The management of the showcave have always been supportive of the efforts of diggers, both inside and outside DYO. Sensible projects within the cave have been given permission, even some very close to the showcave itself. Those of us that dig on the mountain above DYO are allowed to use the car park, free of charge, a privilege which is not extended to walkers. In the past the showcave funded the purchase of timber for a dig on the mountain, and the owner has always been genuinely interested in, and supportive of, digging work that might find the missing miles that must exist between the known cave and the various sinks. What he won't put up with is sustained attempts to create personal access to the cave by an irresponsible minority.

As the Darkness Below article makes clear, cavers have long enjoyed access to DYO, which is one of the finest and best-preserved cave systems in Europe. The Warden system exists for the peace of mind of the showcave owners and has long served to protect the cave. Access is readily available to anyone that wants it (with one or two notable exceptions) and by far the most restrictive aspect of entry to the cave is the Welsh weather.

Just be careful what you wish for.       



           
I think you will find that DYO gave permission then called the police. The NRW did not get involved and no charges or reccomendations were made to any party, In fact the showcave had some explaining to do by not disclosing the concent letter.
9c499b87d1857cab5be85daface60f09.jpg


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All this is water under the bridge .
The catchment in question was in grit so we cave elsewhere but because we cave above dyo we get accused of digging 2nd entrances. The limestone outcrops up there only sit 3-400 ft above known passages so like you say..to penetrate dyo is nearly impossible.

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2xw

Active member
It sounds like the accusatory tone DB and Tony are taking over any "illegal" dig neglects to mention that the owners and the DYOCAP would be complicit in such illegality, if that letter is anything to go by.

I trust the owners and DYOCAP have learnt from this episode and now have the proper consents in place for all modifications to the cave?
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Tony_B said:
the simple fact is that the showcave's insurers see a second entrance as an open back door and will withdraw cover.

Appreciate you may not know the answer, but I'd be very interested to hear why the insurers view the resurgence in any different way, also providing an ungated access to the show cave, for divers.

If I am not mistaken, opening another entrance beyond a sump would be exactly the same scenario...
 

Scrappycaver

New member
Tony...we're you not digging for another entrance in the dry valley,? This would have taken you a few hundred meters beyond the far north choke and not the missing miles that you desired?
If your shaft had succeeded you would have left a route directly back to dyo and some of its best formations in the uk such as The Mostest.

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Bratchley

New member
PeteHall said:
Tony_B said:
the simple fact is that the showcave's insurers see a second entrance as an open back door and will withdraw cover.

Appreciate you may not know the answer, but I'd be very interested to hear why the insurers view the resurgence in any different way, also providing an ungated access to the show cave, for divers.

If I am not mistaken, opening another entrance beyond a sump would be exactly the same scenario...

Also, I'm not sure what happens at other showcaves in the UK but some do have second entrances, and allow through trips in and out of the show cave, without their insurers throwing a wobbly. Surely any second entrance to DYO could be gated in the same way that Tunnel Top, JH etc is, with keys available for through trips one way or another? Just curious.
 

David Rose

Active member
Well I must say another bitter row over how many entrances there should be to a large system in Wales was exactly what the caving world really needed. Happy holidays, one and all. 
 

Alex

Well-known member
Also, I'm not sure what happens at other showcaves in the UK but some do have second entrances, and allow through trips in and out of the show cave, without their insurers throwing a wobbly. Surely any second entrance to DYO could be gated in the same way that Tunnel Top, JH etc is, with keys available for through trips one way or another? Just curious

Yeh Peak cavern is one as mentioned above. Maybe they need better insurers and simply go with the insurers who insure Peak cavern?
 

Alex

Well-known member
Well I must say another bitter row over how many entrances there should be to a large system in Wales was exactly what the caving world really needed. Happy holidays, one and all.

We got to have something to distract us from Brexit!
 

Tony_B

Member
Tony_B said:
Let's be clear about the situation with the unauthorised dig that has caused all this. It was an illegal dig on an SSSI, that was a PDO (Potentially Damaging Operation) for which no permission was sought or given.             

My mistake. The sentence above should have said: "for which no permission was sought or given from CCW" [CCW is now NRW]

Neither the landowner or DYO Caves were in a position to give permission to dig up an SSSI. Unfortunately the landowner didn't realise exactly where the proposed dig was, or the implications of it being on the SSSI, when she gave permission. Likewise DYO's response was based upon information received from the landowner and neither the showcave management, nor the rep from the [then] DYO CAC who was consulted, picked up that the dig site was on the SSSI.

If Scrappycaver can confirm that he received permission to carry out a PDO (Potentially Damaging Operation) on the SSSI, from the CCW [NRW], then I will give him a full and honest apology. Otherwise everything in my post from earlier today stands.             
 

2xw

Active member
You can say everything technically correct, but still sound unreasonable in your positions if you present them in a dishonest way, which is what it appears the article has done.

From what we've seen here, it looks like the title of the article should be:

"Landowner, access group and digger made mistake regarding dig and the landowner will close the cave if that mistake is repeated"

Rather than this biased "news" piece that ultimately appears to be the anonymous ranting of someone who has a clear agenda.
 

Bratchley

New member
Hypothetically, had this digger had permission from NRW, where would we now be? Probably in the very similar place.

I don't see the end result being any different from the perspective of Dan yr Ogof's insurers or Ashford, even if Ashford (and everyone else relevant) had given permission. Would a certain caver be banned from the cave? Who knows...

If it had all been done permissibly, and had actually broken into the cave system (according to Darkness Below it was seemingly only stopped due to the lack of NRW permission - it already had Ashford's and the landowner's) would Ashford have locked his gate (assuming he ever installed one)? Would the digger still be viewed in a bad light?

Essentially, the position Ashford's insurers are currently taking prevents any caver from attempting to ever connect Dan Yr Ogof to a surface entrance (whether it be the sole intention or not), whether through digging directly down, or by connecting another cave system into it. Yes, these things at present look unlikely and farfetched, but no-one knew OFD 2 was there until the divers broke through... As far as I'm aware Pwll Dwfn isn't a SSSI, but any caver who's worked and pushed in there would have been in DyO in a heartbeat given half the chance.

If insurance is the biggest problem he's facing, and he really doesn't want to stop cavers entering (he has been and is very supportive of cavers, as you say), then perhaps the caving community could help him with that and work with him on this issue, given that we know that there are insurers that exist who will cover a multi-entrance show cave - there would then be no need for any of these problems and might allow him to relax.
 
Bratchley said:
... As far as I'm aware Pwll Dwfn isn't a SSSI...

Pwll Dwfn isn't an SSSI in its own right (and neither is DYO, though the show cave is a National Nature Reserve), but both are within the Mynydd Du (Black Mountain) SSSI [ https://naturalresources.wales/media/653737/SSSI_0854_Citation_EN00156b9.pdf and  https://naturalresources.wales/media/653762/SSSI_0854_SMS_EN00114b0.pdf ] and thus subject to any relevant PDO's [ https://naturalresources.wales/media/653752/SSSI_0854_PDO_EN00177da.pdf ].

Very few people were aware of the SSSI limits before the dig in question was reported to NRW some years ago, so quite a few S Wales cavers have dug in ignorant bliss of their heinously illegal behaviour, and many more members of the public, the National Park wardens, and landowners have been complicit in allowing these reckless crimes to go unreported (except, sometimes, by the perpetrators, in their ignorance).
 

Bratchley

New member
Martin Laverty said:
Bratchley said:
... As far as I'm aware Pwll Dwfn isn't a SSSI...

Pwll Dwfn isn't an SSSI in its own right (and neither is DYO, though the show cave is a National Nature Reserve), but both are within the Mynydd Du (Black Mountain) SSSI [ https://naturalresources.wales/media/653737/SSSI_0854_Citation_EN00156b9.pdf and  https://naturalresources.wales/media/653762/SSSI_0854_SMS_EN00114b0.pdf ] and thus subject to any relevant PDO's [ https://naturalresources.wales/media/653752/SSSI_0854_PDO_EN00177da.pdf ].

Very few people were aware of the SSSI limits before the dig in question was reported to NRW some years ago, so quite a few S Wales cavers have dug in ignorant bliss of their heinously illegal behaviour, and many more members of the public, the National Park wardens, and landowners have been complicit in allowing these reckless crimes to go unreported (except, sometimes, by the perpetrators, in their ignorance).

Thanks for clarifying.

Page 3 paragraph 6 onwards in this CCC newsletter has some interesting comments:

http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/newsletters/44_Feb2015.pdf

Namely, the landowner is responsible for notifying NRW and requesting permission for any PDO's on their land, not the visitor, and that legal action against a certain caver doing a certain dig was perhaps a bit heavy handed.
 

Tony_B

Member
Martin Laverty said:
Bratchley said:
... As far as I'm aware Pwll Dwfn isn't a SSSI...

Pwll Dwfn isn't an SSSI in its own right (and neither is DYO, though the show cave is a National Nature Reserve), but both are within the Mynydd Du (Black Mountain) SSSI [ https://naturalresources.wales/media/653737/SSSI_0854_Citation_EN00156b9.pdf and  https://naturalresources.wales/media/653762/SSSI_0854_SMS_EN00114b0.pdf ] and thus subject to any relevant PDO's [ https://naturalresources.wales/media/653752/SSSI_0854_PDO_EN00177da.pdf ].

Very few people were aware of the SSSI limits before the dig in question was reported to NRW some years ago, so quite a few S Wales cavers have dug in ignorant bliss of their heinously illegal behaviour, and many more members of the public, the National Park wardens, and landowners have been complicit in allowing these reckless crimes to go unreported (except, sometimes, by the perpetrators, in their ignorance).

Martin is quite correct. I've dug at sites on the SSSI in blissful ignorance. The simple fact is that cavers and diggers had pretty much free rein over that mountain until the fuss over the dig in question happened, since when NRW and BBNPA have had to take a direct interest.
 

Tony_B

Member
Scrappycaver said:
Tony...we're you not digging for another entrance in the dry valley,? This would have taken you a few hundred meters beyond the far north choke and not the missing miles that you desired?
If your shaft had succeeded you would have left a route directly back to dyo and some of its best formations in the uk such as The Mostest.

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Yes, we did have a dig in the dry valley. The site in question is, as you very well know, close to the sink at Waun Fignen Felen, and therefore quite a long way from the Far North. Still a lot of cave to be found there. The essential difference is that we kept DYO caves fully informed of what we were doing and of our intentions should the dig ever 'go'. Your approach was somewhat different - perhaps you would care to enlighten us? 
 
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