• Win a Rab Nexus Pull-On with the 1st of the Inglesport Fabulous 5 competitions!

    Caption competition, closes Friday 25th April

    Click here to enter

Hunters Hole: problems with anchors

cap n chris

Well-known member
I've cut and pasted this item from the Rhino Rift thread since it has relevance to other sites on Mendip.

PROBLEMS WITH ECO-HANGERS (P-BOLTS) ON MENDIP

UPDATE: Sun 8 April

Since the initial report of a problem with one of the Eco-anchors on the first pitch in Rhino Rift on 26 March a good deal of work has taken place.  A team has already inspected the failed anchor, and the others.  This inspection revealed a number of issues which are now being followed up.  In due course attempts will be made to extract the failed anchor - together with some of its surrounding rock - in order to facilitate a detailed inspection of the failed anchor / resin / rock combination.  In the meantime the Charterhouse Caving Company (CCC) is carefully controlling access to Rhino Rift.

The investigation team also reviewed the available installation records for CSCC Eco-anchors.  As a consequence of that review, and guided by some of the preliminary findings from Rhino Rift, axial pull tests were subsequently conducted in Hunters Hole.  Of the 21 anchors present there, 16 were tested (5 are located in positions where the puller cannot be fitted to the anchor).  Of those 16 anchors, 8 passed the axial pull test (meaning that they withstood a force of 6 kN for 15 seconds), but 8 failed the test, though it must be emphasised that whilst anchors did move under initial loading, NONE came out of the resin.  The defective anchors have been tagged and notices placed in the cave.  Under the circumstances the untested anchors must, of course, be treated with suspicion.  The land owner was informed of the results and advised that cavers should not use use Hunters Hole until the problem has been resolved.  The CSCC fully support this decision and would ask cavers to abide by it.

The installation records also indicated a common factor with Eco-anchors placed at several other locations which, due to a lack of time and manpower (it being the Easter holidays), have not yet been tested.  These locations are: the Cowsh Avens in Swildons, the Ladder Dig Extension in GB Cave, and Split Rock Quarry.

Until the Eco-anchors at these locations can be tested, cavers are also asked to either keep away or to use CAREFULLY-SELECTED alternative belays.  The CSCC has put a notice and new lock (key available locally if needed) on Priddy Green Sink to deter through-trips and requests that cavers do not climb up into Cowsh Avens from Swildons 4 and then use the untested anchors to return to the streamway.  The CCC will place their own controls on GB Cave.

The CSCC, together with the BCA Equipment & Techniques Committee, are now considering what other testing and investigations are required.  However, given that there are some 125 Eco-anchors placed under the national scheme on Mendip, this will clearly take some time to complete.

The Chairman and some members of BCA's Equipment Committee have been fully informed and involved in this issue and support CSCC's approach.

It is worth noting that similar axial pull tests have been conducted in both Derbyshire and Yorkshire without a single anchor failing the test.  In Derbyshire alone, this amounts to over 215 anchors as at late 2006.  So far the problem seems to be confined to Mendip, though the reasons for this have yet to be isolated and demonstrated to a reasonable standard of proof.  Further work is planned to be conducted across the whole of Mendip in response to these events.

Regrettably there is a national shortage of Eco-anchors and the manufacturer's have stated that they will not produce any more!  Some of the few anchors which remain may be required for testing hypotheses to explain the cause of these failures.  The Equipment Committee was already working on a programme to select a suitable replacement.  That work continues, but is unlikely to be completed before late Summer or possibly later if the investigation on Mendip takes any length of time.  Thus the failed anchors may not be replaced for quite some while.  The BCA and the CSCC understand the frustration this will cause.

The Equipment Committee is planning to hold a meeting either in late April or May to discuss the results of the findings and what else should be done, including possible reassurance work in other regions.

Further updates will be posted on the BCA and CSCC websites, and notified via the CSCC email list.

S King                  A Pryke
CSCC Secretary  BCA Equipment Committee Chairman
 
some one in the hunters pub at the weekend informed me there were 21 anchors down Hunters hole.  :o I had notices a few more than i thought necessary last time i was down there a couple of months ago.  Why are there so many down there and who is allowed to put anchors down caves? can they be put in a cave by anyone or is there someone important eg.BCA who is in charge of putting them down caves?  and who checks them in any cave? i have always just looked at an anchor before rigging myself.

these might seem silly questions but i was just interested to know if there are answers out there?  Is over anchoring a type of vandalism - a way of graffitting nature for human pleasure?  just a thought!

Hannah
BC
( * ) ( * )
 
Once upon a time, shortly after the invention of SRT, 8mm spits were placed by just about anyone anywhere & without a bye your leave to anyone else. This was not a good thing and would have eventually led to every pitch head in the country being virtually unusable.

Thus the "P" hanger scheme was devised by NCA (as was, now BCA). These anchors are placed only by agreement with the relevant regional council; they are inspected and maintained (thus the current problems in some caves).

So, if you consider that some caves have been over bolted then come along to your local Regional Council meetings, get to know the people who have made these decsions - in open to all meetings - and ask a few questions. Get yourself trained as an installer, and then when the next cave is due to be done you will be in a position to influence how and where they are placed.

Peter, if you want to know how many bolts, in the BCA scheme, are in Swildons, then look at the bolt pages of the CSCC website. They are all listed.
 
Peter Burgess said:
I once heard someone say there were loads of anchors down Swildons, but maybe I just mis-heard the comment.....

I got the joke, Peter, even if Graham didn't.  Too many anchors in the caving scene has always been a problem...
 
Peter Burgess said:
I once heard someone say there were loads of anchors down Swildons, but maybe I just mis-heard the comment.....

:thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :clap2:

Like the anchors that graffitied the old grotto....is that on the cscc website
 
some cool responses.  i really didn't know the procedure and now i have a bit of an idea.  thank you gents!  i have often thought why anchors get placed where they do!

cheers me dears!

Han
BC
( * ) ( * )
 
Busty Caver, there are effectively 5 pitches in Hunters Hole and a quite significant traverse (which, IIRC, comprises 6 bolts); hence this equates to 3 anchors per pitch which, in line with pretty nearly every SRT rigging code, is entirely "normal". Therefore there are (argumentative people excepted) the correct number of anchors in the cave for the number of pitches.
 
cap 'n chris said:
Busty Caver, there are effectively 5 pitches in Hunters Hole and a quite significant traverse (which, IIRC, comprises 6 bolts); hence this equates to 3 anchors per pitch which, in line with pretty nearly every SRT rigging code, is entirely "normal". Therefore there are (argumentative people excepted) the correct number of anchors in the cave for the number of pitches.

5 Pitches Wow,

but where's the primary backup anchor?

the ladder or the top of the concrete pipe?

Hopefully like the other cave that has had problems with anchor problems it will all be resolved quickly and efficiently so we can get back to enjoying these superb caves.
 
wormster said:
Hopefully like the other cave that has had problems with anchor problems it will all be resolved quickly and efficiently so we can get back to enjoying these superb caves.

Looking forward to it eagerly, already.
 
cap 'n chris said:
Busty Caver, there are effectively 5 pitches in Hunters Hole and a quite significant traverse (which, IIRC, comprises 6 bolts); hence this equates to 3 anchors per pitch which, in line with pretty nearly every SRT rigging code, is entirely "normal". Therefore there are (argumentative people excepted) the correct number of anchors in the cave for the number of pitches.

Not enough, my fine fellow.
I officially requested that Rover Pot be "P" bolted
but I was told there was no call for it.
Patently that is wrong.
I was calling for it ;)
 
whitelackington said:
cap 'n chris said:
Busty Caver, there are effectively 5 pitches in Hunters Hole and a quite significant traverse (which, IIRC, comprises 6 bolts); hence this equates to 3 anchors per pitch which, in line with pretty nearly every SRT rigging code, is entirely "normal". Therefore there are (argumentative people excepted) the correct number of anchors in the cave for the number of pitches.

Not enough, my fine fellow.
I officially requested that Rover Pot be "P" bolted
but I was told there was no call for it.
Patently that is wrong.
I was calling for it ;)
 
:clap2:

I knew it.


Well done Graham,
your vivid sense of Irony/humour
is good.
That you know, means you are intelligent.

A feather in your cap, wear it well, you may not get another. :beer2:
 
Today we s.r.t.'d Hunter's Hole
We did Ledge Route,
then used slings to do Rover Pot.

Carbon dioxide prevalent, even @ the start
of Gas Street.

My question is,
using the "P" bolts,
from the bottom of the entrance ladder, the rope rubs quite badly,
between first and second "Y" hang.
I noticed a spit, perfectly placed for a deviation.
Is this spit still useable and is this spit still part of the "P" bolted
hang :-\
 
This bit is a free climb. The rope is really just a hand line and a backup to the main hang.

As for the spit, I have no idea if it's serviceable or not. It won't have been required as part of the p bolt rigging but if you want to use it then feel free. Caving is not like climbing, there are no designated routes and loads of ethics, it is an exercise in getting where you want to by whatever means that are required.  :thumbsup:
 
Les W said:
This bit is a free climb. The rope is really just a hand line and a backup to the main hang.

As for the spit, I have no idea if it's serviceable or not. It won't have been required as part of the p bolt rigging but if you want to use it then feel free. Caving is not like climbing, there are no designated routes and loads of ethics, it is an exercise in getting where you want to by whatever means that are required.  :thumbsup:

Bearing in mind the expense, lack of "P" bolts, bureaucracy etc

If in future a new route is to be "P" bolted and a deviation is thought necessary,
would it not be a good idea, just to install an 8mm spit and leave
the hanger & cord  in stu :-\
 
whitelackington said:
Les W said:
This bit is a free climb. The rope is really just a hand line and a backup to the main hang.

As for the spit, I have no idea if it's serviceable or not. It won't have been required as part of the p bolt rigging but if you want to use it then feel free. Caving is not like climbing, there are no designated routes and loads of ethics, it is an exercise in getting where you want to by whatever means that are required.  :thumbsup:

Bearing in mind the expense, lack of "P" bolts, bureaucracy etc

If in future a new route is to be "P" bolted and a deviation is thought necessary,
would it not be a good idea, just to install an 8mm spit and leave
the hanger & cord  in stu :-\

Why do you think that P-bolts were introduced in the first place?
 
... to generate paperwork?

Nothing to do with:
Being better
Stronger
Quicker
Easier to use
More reliable
Longer lasting
Maintained
Insured
etc..
 
cap 'n chris said:
More reliable
Longer lasting
Maintained

After the latest Mendip fiasco would you like to rephrase this bit C 'n C...................................... :spank:
 
Back
Top