Lancaster Easegill

[Cookie]

If there was a worthwhile prize, the effort would be made. It has been discussed and considered and it is far from clear that we would be better of if every man, woman and child in the country had the right roam down any cave on open access land.

If open access is not seen as good then perhaps we should at the very least aim for removal of the largely pointless 'closed seasons'?

Quite possibly, but I really don't know enough about the reasons behind the closed season to comment.

As for every man woman and child going down any cave, I doubt very much this would happen - when people have asked me about caving (say for instance workmates) they seem confused and puzzled as to why we need permits in the first place, they asume we can go down whichever we choose whenever we please...
As for caver numbers increasing - there are only so many of us, true certain caves may have a few groups in on certain ocassions but on the whole I doubt there would be that much difference to what we have now.

One the whole I think you are right, but on that odd occasion where you do need to limit access for conservation or safety reasons you would have no legal mechanism.

 

[Cookie]

Cookie

Have read the BCA topic before, so just re-acquainted myself.

What caves are at risk because of CRoW?

It was raised in Council, but the details were not given. Would have to talk to the C&A Officer.

David Judson's point...

When it comes to remote, minor, little visited locations - in practice who the hell cares and who the hell is likely to know, so long as one is modestly discrete!

That's exactly why it should be made clear. I might go to one of these off the beaten tracks, get found out and blow the gaff for everyone.

I really can't condone this advice.  :ang:

As for the free for all - we know it won't happen. Even if it got to anywhere near that point a self governing quota limit isn't beyond the realms of possibility. That should be our choice, not some imposed limit.

But by what legal right could you impose a quoter? Open access is open access is it not?

 

[MSD]

I have come over to Britain several times with a group of Swedish cavers. Since we are not members of CNCC, haven't got BCA insurance etc. we can't get permits. This has been asolutely no problem whatsoever. Farmers and landowners at various places which officially require permits have been very pleasant and have had no objection to us going caving. Fancy that! A cheery wave from the farmer as we change for Lost John's/Juniper/etc. with no permit.

So....if you want to go caving with no permit, take a Swedish registered car and a couple of nice Swedish ladies with you. Works for me every time 

 

[Stu]

But by what legal right could you impose a quoter? Open access is open access is it not?

Open access is open access, yes. And I wouldn't wish for there to be a legal right to impose a quota. I was talking about a self negotiated, self administered and self policed policy.

It's interesting that so much concern is expressed about opening up sites with no limits; as if the hordes will descend. Yet people ne'er raise a concern for the Sell Gill's, the Long churn's etc that get hammered because they are the only open options to people who - aren't BCA members; who aren't part of a club; who can't get permits for out of the way caves that hardly ever get visited because of that very same permit system.

Channelling the access has always been the war cry of those who would have it that open access leads to abuse and a diminishing of the countryside we see as so precious. The fact is it doesn't ever happen like this. Open it up and you spread the burden.

 

[Billy Butcombe]

Stu wrote:

"They can walk without obstruction to some of the very holes in the ground, we had to queue up for three months to have the same right conferred to us as cavers! And as far as the BCA/CNCC is concerned, this should remain so."

Not true, and I would like you to explain why you think that. The CNCC is constantly trying to improve access (just think how many new caves/entrances have been discovered over the last 40 or more years which have been included within the permit system or other land owner agreement). But we can only work within the legal framework, which, as has been described elsewhere, tends to work for the land owner, and against the caver.

Glenn

Sorry Glenn, that should read "have to queue up for" which is still the case now. We have to stay off the Allotment for six months of the year and wait three months for permits, perhaps longer for weekend visits (loose quote from CNCC handbook). This is open access to other valid users of "open air recreation" and actually may not exclude cavers.

As to why I think this is so, well Nick suggests it's not a viable task to take on (is my understanding of his last post). Also from looking at the other cave based forums (BCA) it seems many of the officials favour the status quo.

Dont think you have to wait three months - Leck permits can sometimes be issues at much shorter notice - just email the meets sec.

 

[digscaves]

"Does anyone know if CNCC publish any figures on how many permits/day are issued on Casterton and Leck Fells?"

These figures are always reported at CNCC meetings.

"The meets secs do a good job, but I can't help thinking that a web based permit system might be easier for them generally and us as cavers organising trips at short notice."

Jim used to maintain an online booking system for Leck Fell (for several years) but stopped as it was rarely used.

Glenn

Glenn do CNCC publish the figures? The reason I ask is to know if Casterton Fell is booked up every weekend. If not it's another reason for re introducing a web based system.
So folk traveling from miles away can do so at shorter notice than is currently possible.

Reports would be easy to generate from this sort of system avoiding you and others from spending valuable caving time in a meeting!

Have CNCC discussed trying to end the closed season on Leck following the changes I described earlier?

Slightly off topic this next point. Notts2 is now one of the more popular trips on Leck Fell. The parking place by the gate could use some hardcore to tidy it up.
The provision of this with BCA or CNCC funding could maybe be used as extra leverage to get the permits available increased to 3 a day?
(where 1 permit is for Notts 2)
I suspect no one uses the Lost Johns parking space for Notts2 trips.

 

[Stu]

Stu wrote:

"They can walk without obstruction to some of the very holes in the ground, we had to queue up for three months to have the same right conferred to us as cavers! And as far as the BCA/CNCC is concerned, this should remain so."

Not true, and I would like you to explain why you think that. The CNCC is constantly trying to improve access (just think how many new caves/entrances have been discovered over the last 40 or more years which have been included within the permit system or other land owner agreement). But we can only work within the legal framework, which, as has been described elsewhere, tends to work for the land owner, and against the caver.

Glenn

Sorry Glenn, that should read "have to queue up for" which is still the case now. We have to stay off the Allotment for six months of the year and wait three months for permits, perhaps longer for weekend visits (loose quote from CNCC handbook). This is open access to other valid users of "open air recreation" and actually may not exclude cavers.

As to why I think this is so, well Nick suggests it's not a viable task to take on (is my understanding of his last post). Also from looking at the other cave based forums (BCA) it seems many of the officials favour the status quo.

Dont think you have to wait three months - Leck permits can sometimes be issues at much shorter notice - just email the meets sec.

Of course in reality you wouldn't have to wait three months, but that is technically the procedure. Aside from that Leck doesn't count as it's Excepted land not Open Access.

 

[dunc]

Dont think you have to wait three months - Leck permits can sometimes be issues at much shorter notice - just email the meets sec.

If you're lucky and its not already booked, when I've applied for permits at the start of the year for Leck I've had to suggest alternative dates as it was already booked up on my initial preferences. And for short notice permits the website showing what was available would be ideal for making a quick check..

I suspect no one uses the Lost Johns parking space for Notts2 trips.

Yep. In theory everyone should as thats the official spot but in practice I think it is quite a different story!!

The parking place by the gate could use some hardcore to tidy it up.
The provision of this with BCA or CNCC funding could maybe be used as extra leverage to get the permits available increased to 3 a day?

Why would the landowner want to increase the number of permits just because us cavers pay to have the unofficial car park resurfaced? What benefit does he get?

 

[damian]

I suspect no one uses the Lost Johns parking space for Notts2 trips.

I do. For the sake of about 5 extra minutes' walking, I try to keep the landowners happy. Is it really too much for people to do?

 

[digscaves]

The parking place by the gate could use some hardcore to tidy it up.
The provision of this with BCA or CNCC funding could maybe be used as extra leverage to get the permits available increased to 3 a day?

Why would the landowner want to increase the number of permits just because us cavers pay to have the unofficial car park resurfaced? What benefit does he get?

The benefit is an improvement to the appearance of the land by the gate. I suspect if CNCC were to ask about increasing the number of permits, the state of this bit of ground may come up.
Your quite right, there is no compelling reason for him accepting more cavers. On the other hand if we are being limited because of car parking spaces at Lost Johns having some extra official space would be good.
Theres the walkers up there as well, they seem to park near the caves!

Where getting access to somewhere has been an issue for me in the past, I have often found that offering to improve part of a track oils the negotiations.

 

[digscaves]

I suspect no one uses the Lost Johns parking space for Notts2 trips.

I do. For the sake of about 5 extra minutes' walking, I try to keep the landowners happy. Is it really too much for people to do?

Well done... most folk are born lazy though, or so it would seem by the amount of crap left and cleared up from the unofficial spot!

 

[dunc]

The benefit is an improvement to the appearance of the land by the gate. I suspect if CNCC were to ask about increasing the number of permits, the state of this bit of ground may come up.
Your quite right, there is no compelling reason for him accepting more cavers. On the other hand if we are being limited because of car parking spaces at Lost Johns having some extra official space would be good.
Theres the walkers up there as well, they seem to park near the caves!

Fair point.
I guess at the end of the day it all depends how they feel about making more space and potentially having more people up there as to whether it would work or not.. Would they listen to the arguement that people undertaking in walks/picnics/sightseeing also use the parking spots we do and would it sway them to let us improve parking spots in return for better access remains to be seen.

Back on the subject of extra permit per day, I still think removal of closed season should be the first target, this alone would give about an extra 24 days (Sat+Sun) and thats 2permits a day (which equals 48 possible weekend caving trips), and maybe we could try for an extra permit at the same time! Everyone else can go up there but we can't and we stick (or at least should do in the interests of good relations) to pre-defined routes to the caves so we don't cause that much disturbance to grouse/lambs/etc which are the standard reasons for closed seasons..

 

[Stu]

Dunc, we might be the only one's interested in this!! If we wanted to bring this up in the proper way how would we go about it? BCA and in this case CNCC first ports of call?

 

[Les W]

CNCC deal with all access issues / negotiations in the Yorkshire Dales.
It is BCA policy will not get involved in regional council issues / business unless asked to by the relevant regional caving council.

 

[Stu]

Righto.

 

[Glenn]

Digscaves wrote:

"Glenn do CNCC publish the figures?"

All CNCC officers are required to produce a report at CNCC meetings. Other than that, the answer to your question is no, as it has not been previously requested. If people want to know something, they come to the meeting.

"The reason I ask is to know if Casterton Fell is booked up every weekend. If not it's another reason for re introducing a web based system. So folk traveling from miles away can do so at shorter notice than is currently possible. Reports would be easy to generate from this sort of system avoiding you and others from spending valuable caving time in a meeting! "

I understand and have sympathy for what you are saying, but until someone offers to do just that, nothing is going to change. Currently we have a very keen volunteer to manage the CNCC website, which he has been working on for over 2 years, but we still have no web presence. So unless we have a new volunteer, who can convince the CNCC committee that they will actually do something, then nothing is going to change.

This situation is not unique to CNCC, BCA is managed by a handfull of volunteers, who are absolutely run off their feet, many undertaking 2 roles, because there are not enough volunteers getting involved. And often, when they do, they get frightened off by the amount of work (on a voluntry basis) that's expected from them.

"Have CNCC discussed trying to end the closed season on Leck following the changes I described earlier?"

Yes, frequently. The hard facts are that the landowner does not want cavers on his land.

"Slightly off topic this next point. Notts2 is now one of the more popular trips on Leck Fell. The parking place by the gate could use some hardcore to tidy it up. The provision of this with BCA or CNCC funding could maybe be used as extra leverage to get the permits available increased to 3 a day? (where 1 permit is for Notts 2) I suspect no one uses the Lost Johns parking space for Notts2 trips."

Rather than continue to reply to these questions, because, just by replying to them, nothing is going to change, why dont you attend the next CNCC meeting?

It's at Hellifield Village Institute, 8pm Friday 19th January.

 

[digscaves]

Digscaves wrote:

"Glenn do CNCC publish the figures?"

All CNCC officers are required to produce a report at CNCC meetings. Other than that, the answer to your question is no, as it has not been previously requested. If people want to know something, they come to the meeting.

"The reason I ask is to know if Casterton Fell is booked up every weekend. If not it's another reason for re introducing a web based system. So folk traveling from miles away can do so at shorter notice than is currently possible. Reports would be easy to generate from this sort of system avoiding you and others from spending valuable caving time in a meeting! "

I understand and have sympathy for what you are saying, but until someone offers to do just that, nothing is going to change. Currently we have a very keen volunteer to manage the CNCC website, which he has been working on for over 2 years, but we still have no web presence. So unless we have a new volunteer, who can convince the CNCC committee that they will actually do something, then nothing is going to change.

This situation is not unique to CNCC, BCA is managed by a handfull of volunteers, who are absolutely run off their feet, many undertaking 2 roles, because there are not enough volunteers getting involved. And often, when they do, they get frightened off by the amount of work (on a voluntry basis) that's expected from them.

"Have CNCC discussed trying to end the closed season on Leck following the changes I described earlier?"

Yes, frequently. The hard facts are that the landowner does not want cavers on his land.

"Slightly off topic this next point. Notts2 is now one of the more popular trips on Leck Fell. The parking place by the gate could use some hardcore to tidy it up. The provision of this with BCA or CNCC funding could maybe be used as extra leverage to get the permits available increased to 3 a day? (where 1 permit is for Notts 2) I suspect no one uses the Lost Johns parking space for Notts2 trips."

Rather than continue to reply to these questions, because, just by replying to them, nothing is going to change, why dont you attend the next CNCC meeting?

It's at Hellifield Village Institute, 8pm Friday 19th January.

Cheers Glenn I may do that.

Re the website it should be good then when it arrives!

 

[Cookie]

This situation is not unique to CNCC, BCA is managed by a handfull of volunteers, who are absolutely run off their feet, many undertaking 2 roles, because there are not enough volunteers getting involved. And often, when they do, they get frightened off by the amount of work (on a voluntry basis) that's expected from them.

Only 2? You lucky, lucky, b*stard.   

 

[Stu]

Rather than continue to reply to these questions, because, just by replying to them, nothing is going to change, why dont you attend the next CNCC meeting?

It's at Hellifield Village Institute, 8pm Friday 19th January.

Glenn, does an attendee have to be sponsored by club i.e. letter, or can they just show up?

 

[Les W]

This situation is not unique to CNCC, BCA is managed by a handfull of volunteers, who are absolutely run off their feet, many undertaking 2 roles, because there are not enough volunteers getting involved. And often, when they do, they get frightened off by the amount of work (on a voluntry basis) that's expected from them.

Only 2? You lucky, lucky, b*stard.   

Ditto!!!