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Mine shaft storage on news
- Thread starter tomferry
- Start date
ChrisJC
Well-known member
Nice and simple, no clever materials needed. Just a mine shaft and a heavy weight.
Not sure the numbers will ever add up though.
For scale, one need to know the weight of water in Marchlyn Mawr and its height above Llyn Peris. That lot will run Wales for 20 minutes. I imagine a few concrete weights is many orders of magnitude less.
Chris.
Not sure the numbers will ever add up though.
For scale, one need to know the weight of water in Marchlyn Mawr and its height above Llyn Peris. That lot will run Wales for 20 minutes. I imagine a few concrete weights is many orders of magnitude less.
Chris.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
For it to be feasible you'd want deep shafts, the article touts 750m. What concerns me is that is hard to find a 750m shaft that is dry without pumping, which requires energy! Unless of course if you happened to have a working deep mine that has a spare shaft to borrow then you'd be in business, sadly we don't have so many of them these days over here. "..Our ?Beachhead market? is existing underground mineshafts, particularly mines in Central Europe which are currently operating..." but maybe Poland or somewhere?
I don't think they want wet shafts as they hope to move fast for burst generation.
Maybe if it drained naturally they could drop water then let it drain, for shallow shafts. Or pump it out which'd be an exotic pumped storage variation, but in locations where traditional pumped storage isn't possible
Fluffy marketing video vaporously low on technical content, if that sounds appealing at https://gravitricity.com/
Interesting idea, might have a niche application somewhere? Southern offshore grid and Kent coal mines? oh, those ones get wet, bother!
Sounds like a ruse for extracting cash from investors. We'll see..
I don't think they want wet shafts as they hope to move fast for burst generation.
Maybe if it drained naturally they could drop water then let it drain, for shallow shafts. Or pump it out which'd be an exotic pumped storage variation, but in locations where traditional pumped storage isn't possible
Fluffy marketing video vaporously low on technical content, if that sounds appealing at https://gravitricity.com/
Interesting idea, might have a niche application somewhere? Southern offshore grid and Kent coal mines? oh, those ones get wet, bother!
Sounds like a ruse for extracting cash from investors. We'll see..
50 tonnes for 750m is about 1MW for 6 mins at 100% efficiency if my trusty HP-42 is correct.
Pulling a 50 ton string out of a hole in 6 mins with a 1300hp winch sounds about right.
About 30 litres of diesel? Once a day? Seems a lot of stuff to phase out 30 litres of diesel a day.
Pulling a 50 ton string out of a hole in 6 mins with a 1300hp winch sounds about right.
About 30 litres of diesel? Once a day? Seems a lot of stuff to phase out 30 litres of diesel a day.
Wayland Smith
Active member
Fjell said:
But there are no grants or consultation fees to be claimed for a diesel generator!
Dropping a weight down a hole and they can do all sorts of studies and desktop simulations.
Nice sounding project to pull in investors and line a few pockets.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
A few calculations now I have had a look at the Dinorwic stats.
The top lake has 9.2 million tons of water in it, and it drops it over a distance of 500m.
So you need a mineshaft 500m deep with a 9.2 million ton weight on a rope to wind up and down to be as useful as Dinorwic.
The numbers are staggering, I feel that a weight in a mineshaft is as has been previously stated - a con for stupid investors who can't do some basic physics!
Chris.
The top lake has 9.2 million tons of water in it, and it drops it over a distance of 500m.
So you need a mineshaft 500m deep with a 9.2 million ton weight on a rope to wind up and down to be as useful as Dinorwic.
The numbers are staggering, I feel that a weight in a mineshaft is as has been previously stated - a con for stupid investors who can't do some basic physics!
Chris.
pwhole
Well-known member
I watched the video and was intrigued as to the apparently simple wheeze of sinking new shafts as required 'near to towns, factories' etc. There are many, many shafts in the Sheffield area, and as far as I know, most of the ones that are still open but capped are flooded about 50m below surface. The one at Hemingfield Colliery at Elsecar is flooded within 9m of the surface. So 750m around here will be rather wet. Totley Tunnel vent shaft is on the highest hill for miles and that's about 220m deep, and is pissing wet all the way down through gritstone, sandstone and shale, but luckily there's a railway tunnel at the bottom. But either way, above or below, surely the effort and cost of preventing water ingress will offset any benefits of 'free' energy, regardless of the efficiency of the system. 750m is a long way to pump water up.
Although - if you had a much smaller shaft alongside, could you seal the base of the main shaft completely, with water in it, and then push the water up the smaller one and have turbines inside it, using the weight as a hydraulic piston?
Although - if you had a much smaller shaft alongside, could you seal the base of the main shaft completely, with water in it, and then push the water up the smaller one and have turbines inside it, using the weight as a hydraulic piston?
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
I'm sceptical too, but to be fair to them it's not supposed to compare to Dinorwig. Like a single wind turbine wasn't to replace Drax. But maybe they can pair this weight-on-a-string-thing with a turbine or two. But agree... Dinorwig killer this ain't.ChrisJC said:
I think you had that the wrong way round.Maybe if you invest ?500 you'll get ?5 backDown and beyond said:... I might invest ?5 might get ?500 back after all them weights keep Falling !
ChrisJC
Well-known member
Cantclimbtom said:
Indeed not. I was just trying to get a handle on the relative scales of this project and an actual working (and useful) equivalent, where the physics are basically the same (P.E. = MGH).
And you would need an awful lot of them to be useful!
Maybe instead of a mine shaft, they could be fitted inside the towers of a wind turbine... :-\
Chris.
wellyjen
Well-known member
Here is another scam company for investors that can't do simple sums - https://pavegen.com/. Pavement tiles that generate energy from peoples steps. Good grief. Based amongst the hipsters around the gentrified Kings Cross in that London.AR said:
To quote:
"We believe in the potential of clean technology to power a sustainable future, one in which people are not simply passive consumers, but active participants in making a better world. So, when we talk about people power, we mean it literally. Our Pavegen V3 energy tile harnesses the power of every footstep to provide clean, off-grid electricity."
In that border line area where parody and reality meet and you can't tell which is which any more. :-\
SamT
Moderator
People keep calling it a 'scam'
I'm not sure that's fair. This is just folks hunting around for any opportunity to generate energy as cleanly and renewably as possible, and as people seem to be hell bent on shouting about on the Mars/Space thread, there's apparently loads of cash floating around for research and development.
I entirely agree, that this is just "Micro" generation. Just like the many micro hydro system that have sprung up on hillsides all over wales. But every little helps.
I agree that the opportunities are probably limited and in sure the investors are over egging it.
Its so funny that on one thead, everyones exhorting the virtues of farting about with drones on mars and to hell with the cost and the rocket fuel, but lambasting those down here on earth who are casting around for solutions to the energy crisis and saying its a waste of money, a 'scam' even.
I'm not sure that's fair. This is just folks hunting around for any opportunity to generate energy as cleanly and renewably as possible, and as people seem to be hell bent on shouting about on the Mars/Space thread, there's apparently loads of cash floating around for research and development.
I entirely agree, that this is just "Micro" generation. Just like the many micro hydro system that have sprung up on hillsides all over wales. But every little helps.
I agree that the opportunities are probably limited and in sure the investors are over egging it.
Its so funny that on one thead, everyones exhorting the virtues of farting about with drones on mars and to hell with the cost and the rocket fuel, but lambasting those down here on earth who are casting around for solutions to the energy crisis and saying its a waste of money, a 'scam' even.
wellyjen
Well-known member
Rockets are cool. Drones on Mars are very cool. Big lumps of concrete on string down mine shafts are not cool. Seems good enough to me!SamT said:Its so funny that on one thead, everyones exhorting the virtues of farting about with drones on mars and to hell with the cost and the rocket fuel, but lambasting those down here on earth who are casting around for solutions to the energy crisis and saying its a waste of money, a 'scam' even.
