More bad news for BCA modernisers

[Stuart France]

They also have over 10 times as many members (& more of them are individual rather than club)...

Are you implying that club members are somehow less well represented by their clubs at national level than direct members are, or that climbing has a higher proportion of activists than caving has, and most of them don't see the need for clubs?

The main reason cavers join clubs is to get access to keys to caves and to use access systems.  I've not come across any padlocked mountains.  OK, some 8000m ones etc have booking systems to manage global demand, as do some world class walking trails, but that is truly exceptional.

I know that the BMC has 10x more member fee income from climbers than BCA gets from cavers.  That's why I said caving will have to rely on "committed volunteers".

That still does not explain why the BMC is completely climber focused and highly effective when the BCA isn't.

 

[NewStuff]

They also have over 10 times as many members (& more of them are individual rather than club)...

And? If everyone has an individual vote, then they still carry the sway that having "10 times as many members" does. If they all view things as the CSCC is alleging they do, then that will be shown in the individual voting. Unless the CSCC are voting how officers wish to and ignoring what members want... but surely they wouldn't do *that*...  :

 

[Robert Scott]

[/quote]

That still does not explain why the BMC is completely climber focused and highly effective when the BCA isn't.
[/quote]

Hello Stuart, may I seek some clarification from your comment "Climber focused and highly effective". I think that you mean that the BCA isn't highly effective. If that is what you mean then 1.) what do you perceive to be the cause of that lack of effectiveness? and 2.) how do you think that it might that be remedied?

 

[mikem]

They also have over 10 times as many members (& more of them are individual rather than club)...

And? If everyone has an individual vote, then they still carry the sway that having "10 times as many members" does. If they all view things as the CSCC is alleging they do, then that will be shown in the individual voting. Unless the CSCC are voting how officers wish to and ignoring what members want... but surely they wouldn't do *that*...  :

I was replying to why BMC are more professional, nothing to do with voting.

They are climber focused, but climbers aren't particularly environmentally friendly (although better than the average citizen), whilst cavers are much more conflicted between what is good for the cave & for the members.

 

[blackshiver]

When you say ?members? who are you referring too........

 

[Oceanrower]

As someone who came into caving from a climbing background I am often stunned by how badly cavers treat caves.

Bolts I can (generally) overlook but the amount of crappy plastic bags, old det cord, rope tat,  tools, unused rusty scaffolding, discarded/broken clothing, graffiti and general litter left lying about is, often, depressing.

Say what you like about the difference between climbing and caving (And climbers are very far from faultless) but cavers do have a habit of leaving their playground like an absolute shit hole!

 

[mikem]

Yep, I wasn't trying to suggest cavers are better than climbers, just that there is more conflict, within the sport, between conserving the sites & free access, than there is on the crags.

Members are anyone who's in the BCA - we all have different standards of what we consider acceptable.

 

[Pitlamp]

Stuart France said: "The main reason cavers join clubs is to get access to keys to caves".

This left me completely confused. There may be some truth in this locally, for you, but it's certainly not the case generally. I'm in four clubs and I'm there because of the camaraderie and the sharing of information and collective efforts on projects. Not to mention enjoying all the other benefits of spending time with like minded people.

In my recent experience, access has never been simpler, thanks to the efforts of a few notable individuals - whether you're in a club or a BCA DIM. One of those individuals, of course, is the subject of this topic (to ensure this stays "on topic").

 

[andrewmcleod]

The idea that climbers are not as concerned about conservation as cavers is entirely fallacious. They had their own bolt wars, remember.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Seems that discussion has been deflected away from the issue
to become a cavers are better than climbers rant!

How about some of the armchair warriors  getting back to the subjet of BCA!

 

[CatM]

The amount of work that Matt and Gary have put into British caving in the last few years is phenomenal. I'm absolutely gutted that they feel resignation from BCA is their only option.

I hope that someone with as much positive enthusiasm will take over the webmaster role so that all Gary's hard work on the website etc does not go to waste. And let's hope that, thanks to the changes put in place after last AGM, democracy will prevail and those attempting to thwart Matt and Gary's efforts will be put on their place.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Oceanrower]

Seems that discussion has been deflected away from the issue
to become a cavers are better than climbers rant!

How about some of the armchair warriors  getting back to the subjet of BCA!

And that is one of the things I dislike about this particular forum. The idea that some self righteous guardian of the internet should proscribe what we can and can't talk about.

If I'm having a conversation, maybe at work, maybe in the pub, the conversation flows and digresses. Nobody says "Oi! Can't talk about that. That's not what we started with". Why can't the same happen here without someone telling us what we should be discussing?

Oh, and incidentally, until I posted this I only saw one person ranting and the conversation was quite polite until someone kicked in with "armchair warriers". Only one of them on this thread so far... (two now, including me...)

 

[cavemanmike]

Put your toy's back in the pram boy's, positive mental attitude  :

 

[droid]

Bollocks

Just trod on a Lego brick.....

 

[The Old Ruminator]

As an old Mendip caver presumably one of those resistant to change I wish to heck I knew what this was all about. Did it start with CROW ( sic ) ?
Why is there a supposed North-South divide? In any case, it all seems to be so one-sided. If there is another side represented by others why do not they come and put their own point of view? If this were a business there might be jolly chats on the golf course. Does everything have to go through committees? I am sure much of politics is decided unofficially on the side. A few face to face chats in the pub might have resolved some points. Too late now for that in all respects.

 

[2xw]

As an old Mendip caver presumably one of those resistant to change I wish to heck I knew what this was all about. Did it start with CROW ( sic ) ?
Why is there a supposed North-South divide? In any case, it all seems to be so one-sided. If there is another side represented by others why do not they come and put their own point of view? If this were a business there might be jolly chats on the golf course. Does everything have to go through committees? I am sure much of politics is decided unofficially on the side. A few face to face chats in the pub might have resolved some points. Too late now for that in all respects.

If you want the other point of view go to DarknessBelow or keep an ear open in the Hunters. All the same people.

There isn't really a north south divide, there's a divide between a load of bastards from various areas. Most of them have hated each other for 40 years and shan't be stopping now.

I think it went beyond face to faces when the CNCC send the CSCC a cake and they asked if it was poisonous. The people involved in this - Matt, Gary, Cookie etc have had plenty of chats - they had an hour long one at Hidden Earth. A face to face might work if all this were based on real concerns and issues instead of personal vendettas.

The sooner we get some new blood in the better. For anyone thinking of it give it a crack. None of it is hard - although I accept this shite isn't a great advert.

I'd rather it was kept in committees actually. The less back door bullshittery the BCA has the better - ideally I'd like to see all council meetings live streamed. Might do a lot of council members and regional council reps good if they remembered they are accountable to those who pay in.

 

[Robert Scott]

... democracy will prevail and those attempting to thwart Matt and Gary's efforts will be put on their place.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

Those attempting to thwart Matt & Gary's efforts have already been put in their place by the vote of members 82.5% in favour and by the vote of Groups 76.7% in favour. But it seems that a very small number of people cannot accept that their world has changed and are doing their damnedest to be rude.

 

[darren]

Well there you go Mr Old Ruminator.

Make what you want of the last two comments, but they do represent the tone of a fair chunk of the posts on this subject.

They are occasionally followed by requests that those from the other side post there views to aid understanding.

Views from the other side rarely get posted, can't think why.

 

[2xw]

Views from the other side rarely get posted, can't think why.

Matt is resigning because of a campaign of abuse.
Presumably you're saying that there's an argument from "the other side" where you would be persuaded that this is reasonable?

Perhaps if someone is unwilling to defend their behaviour publically it's because it is indefensible.

 

[darren]

Views from the other side rarely get posted, can't think why.

Matt is resigning because of a campaign of abuse.
Presumably you're saying that there's an argument from "the other side" where you would be persuaded that this is reasonable?

Perhaps if someone is unwilling to defend their behaviour publically it's because it is indefensible.

Maybe things don't get posted because snippets of a post are quoted out of context and then attacked.