Ogof Draenen

[Rhys]

CD is locked and gated AFAIK. If it stays that way can't see what more neds to be done..

It'd probably be too quick and easy for people to break in. That's what led to the Nunnery entrance gate getting a layer of concrete over it. I'm not saying it would happen again, but that would be the fear.

Rhys

 

[Rhys]

For a present generation to do irreversable damage to a natural cave due to a short term disagrement would be ....well......totally unsurprising actually.

Quite. However, the natural state of the entrance has already been permanently altered by being dug out and having a gate installed. Let's hope that whatever extra security measures might be added now will not have any more permanent impact than that.

Rhys

 

[John S]

Does anybody have any info on how Drws Cefn will be closed yet? Permanently locked gate? Bat grille? Or just a dump of solid concrete (would be interesting to see how they got it there if so!!)
Or has this not been decided yet?

From a rescue perspective, I'd be interested to know whether it will be possible to reopen it in case of a serious emergency?

I don't know, but I would assume it'll be along the same lines as the Nunnery entrance; permanent bat access and fully openable from the surface within an hour or two in the event of a rescue.

Unfortunately the 'bat access' left in the Nunnery entrance is just a fist sized hole. Just right for surface predation. So no bats will use it out of choice. It needs redoing to have a good horizontal exit path large enough for them to leave on the wing.

As the shaft was not stabilized, at the insistence of the PDCMG. It probably has collapsed and may take several hours if not days to make secure and save.

 

[Rhys]

...the 'bat access' left in the Nunnery entrance is just a fist sized hole.

Correct. Here it is:

Just right for surface predation. So no bats will use it out of choice. It needs redoing to have a good horizontal exit path large enough for them to leave on the wing.

My knowledge of bats is somewhat limited. If this is the case, it would be worth putting together a proposal for a suitable modification. I'm sure Cambrian CC would fund it.

As the shaft was not stabilized... It probably has collapsed and may take several hours if not days to make secure and save.

That might be the case, it's some years since I had a look up there from the inside and my memory is vague...

Rhys

 

[Brains]

I believe there are guidelines for bat grill dimensions, IIRC about 12" x 4" and approaching horizontal. I have heard from other places that even where bats on the wing have egress local puddytats sit round the hole and catch them for fun...

 

[John S]

I believe there are guidelines for bat grill dimensions, IIRC about 12" x 4" and approaching horizontal. I have heard from other places that even where bats on the wing have egress local puddytats sit round the hole and catch them for fun...

For better details check chapter 11 from bat workers handbook http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-2861

 

[John S]

An official statement taken from the Cambrian Caving Council website:
http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/latest_news.html

"Clarification Regarding Access to Ogof Draenen - 6th April 2010

After a period of uncertainty regarding future access to Ogof Draenen the PDCMG can now confirm that ongoing access to the cave has been secured. However, the conditions attached to this access are that it is by the original entrance to the cave only. Any further attempts to open or otherwise use other entrances to the cave on the land owned by PwllDu Conservation Limited will result in termination of the current access agreement.  We therefore ask all cavers to respect the terms of access to the cave. Details of the new lock and key arrangements are given below.

Fleur Loveridge."

So Whitelackington,  there has been an official statement on an official website.

It does seem to have a different slant on it from the landowners latest statement I have seen.


This says 'We expect the PDCMG to close permanently the recently opened entrance taking into account the Countryside Council for Wales requirements for access for bats, etc.'
A good pass the buck and liability statement there.

PDCMG does not have a mandate from its member clubs to carry out this action until it can vote on it.
12th December 2009 PDCMG meeting just passed the motion ?There should be no access to Ogof Draenen though Drws Cefn?.

The next meeting being this June?, should mean that Drws Cefn stays as it is until then. A couple of months to push for better access. If the PDCMG will not go for it, then the Cambrian CC should take over.

 

[Rhys]

John

I fear you may be flogging a dead horse.

On a different note, in case anyone?s wondering why I?ve been on this thread quite so much in the last couple of days, I?ve been invited to join the UKCaving moderators team to help them keep on top south Wales issues. I?m not directly involved in either side of this debate, so I?ll try to be impartial and hopefully we can prevent any more threads becoming unnecessarily personal and unpleasant.

Rhys

 

[ianball11]

A sensible appointement I feel, good luck.
Ian B.

 

[stevejw]

John

I fear you may be flogging a dead horse.

On a different note, in case anyone?s wondering why I?ve been on this thread quite so much in the last couple of days, I?ve been invited to join the UKCaving moderators team to help them keep on top south Wales issues. I?m not directly involved in either side of this debate, so I?ll try to be impartial and hopefully we can prevent any more threads becoming unnecessarily personal and unpleasant.

Rhys

Can't see the point of the 'personal' nature of many posts given most contributions are made in good faith and projects discussed are ultimately for the benefit of all concerned.

 

[graham]

PDCMG does not have a mandate from its member clubs to carry out this action until it can vote on it.

Yet if it doesn't do it, then it would seem that all access will again be put at risk. Mandate or no mandate it would appear that the PDCMG has an obligation to abide by the landowners wishes that would override any mandate.

 

[AndyF]

PDCMG does not have a mandate from its member clubs to carry out this action until it can vote on it.

Yet if it doesn't do it, then it would seem that all access will again be put at risk. Mandate or no mandate it would appear that the PDCMG has an obligation to abide by the landowners wishes that would override any mandate.

Note that the means of doing it are not specified, so you may think that the membership may have soemthing to say on that. There are many possibilities.

Note also that a timescale for doing it is not specified, so there is plenty of time to consult their membership too....

And of course, they can call a meeting any time they like to discuss an issue...

Will any of the above happen..? We shall see 

 

[graham]

Note that the means of doing it are not specified, so you may think that the membership may have soemthing to say on that. There are many possibilities.

Semantics. The landowners' wishes seem perfectly clear.

 

[Big Jim]

Does anybody have any info on how Drws Cefn will be closed yet? Permanently locked gate? Bat grille? Or just a dump of solid concrete (would be interesting to see how they got it there if so!!)
Or has this not been decided yet?

From a rescue perspective, I'd be interested to know whether it will be possible to reopen it in case of a serious emergency?

I don't know, but I would assume it'll be along the same lines as the Nunnery entrance; permanent bat access and fully openable from the surface within an hour or two in the event of a rescue.

Unfortunately the 'bat access' left in the Nunnery entrance is just a fist sized hole. Just right for surface predation. So no bats will use it out of choice. It needs redoing to have a good horizontal exit path large enough for them to leave on the wing.

As the shaft was not stabilized, at the insistence of the PDCMG. It probably has collapsed and may take several hours if not days to make secure and save.

From what you lot have said and from the picture, the bat access left is useless AND capping of the entrance in this way could be seen as an obstruction to the roost - an offence (unless carried out under licence) under the WCA if the site is a known bat roost.  In some instances bats will get through small holes by landing and crawling through but most species which use caves etc prefer to be able to fly directly into the cave and some (Horseshoe sp.) need to be able to fly directly into the site.  They dont however neccessarily need a vertical grill to fly through - bats are dead good at flying down through horizontal openings. 

Not only does this almost certainly block the entrance, but it could also alter temperature / air flow dynamics of the cave which could make the site unsuitable (more so in smaller systems). And yes I know it could also make them better but without soem serious ammounts of pre and post capping data thats a hard one to prove or disprove.

As someone pointed out already, capping guidelines are available in the Bat Workers Manuel via the JNCC or Eurobats does a publication on managing hibernation sites http://www.eurobats.org/publications/publication%20series/pubseries_no2_english_3rd_edition.pdf

In Derbyshire we also have a Shaft Capping Guidelines publication that the County Council produce in conjunction with the DCA that had input from local Bat Workers.

If you are unsure get a local Bat Group member or someone from Natural England along to advise - I have been asked to do so several times in the Peaks (but try and get a caver friendly bat worker if you can, not a bunny hugger)

Big Jim

 

[AndyF]

Note that the means of doing it are not specified, so you may think that the membership may have soemthing to say on that. There are many possibilities.

Semantics. The landowners' wishes seem perfectly clear.

So what means IS specified then.... seeing as how "perfectly clear" it is.... 

 

[Rhys]

Big Jim

Thanks for your bat input.

Just to be clear, the picture is of the "second" entrance at the Nunnery that was sealed several years ago, not Ogof Drws Cefn, the subject of the current issues. I'm not sure that access was ever any more open than this - the diggers or cappers might know.

It's not in England, so Countryside Council for Wales would be the people to speak to.

Rhys

 

[John S]

It's not in England, so Countryside Council for Wales would be the people to speak to.

Rhys

This has been done in the past. Written reports are with the PDCMG from 2001 & 2002 but still not action on what was strongly suggested ! I keep pressing but no action.  Especially with the original entrance which was used for many years by bats and now is basically draught and bat proof.

 

[Alex]

If the entrance must be blocked and if bats are the issue just keep the current gate locked and give the key to the land owner, job done. If a rescue needs to be done I am sure rescuers could open it quicker then they would a solid blockage.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Yep, get your local Bat Group involved. I invited one as observers on a rescue practice I organised once, and didn't know what hit me.

Robin

 

[Big Jim]

Yep, get your local Bat Group involved. I invited one as observers on a rescue practice I organised once, and didn't know what hit me.

Robin

Well, we all live quite happily together in Derbyshire. I wonder why :-\