• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

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Ogof Draenen

cap n chris

Well-known member
Don't know what others reckon but I kinda got the impression that GOG (Diggers) and PDCMG didn't come to either:

A) an agreement or
B) a compromise

Therefore, given that either one or t'other of these were a deadlined request of the landowner (otherwise the cave would be shut) it seemed pretty reasonable for observers to conclude that access to the cave was to be denied from the end of March.

Thank goodness this hasn't happened.

What it looks like, to me, is:

There was no compromise
There was no agreement
There was no closure of the cave

:)

Let's not try and argue that the third of these situations should be countermanded for the sake of semantics!
 

whitelackington

New member
The withholding of information is another lever of power.
This whole sorry mess is about the PDCMG holding on to their power, nothing else at all.
The PDCMG never wanted a compromise because that would be a diminution of their power.
Although they say little they are entirely transparent.
 

Andy Farrant

Active member
As a member of the PDCMG (albeit it for some arcane procedural technicality without a vote), I can confirm that access to Ogof Draenen has been secured via the current entrance despite the lack of any compromise between GOG and the PDCMG, but that Drws Cefn will be blocked. That we still have access to Draenen comes as a great relief to all concerned, but had both parties come to an agreement when Drws Cefn was opened up many years ago (before the present landowner took over the land) then none of this would have happened.

A reasonable compromise solution was to have a locked (from both sides) gate on Drws Cefn with access into Draenen allowed only by written application in advance for certain types of trip (eg survey, research & rescue, or to avoid camping). That would keep the further reaches of the cave protected and still kept the 'wilderness' aspect for those who like that sort of thing. I also think that the risks to the further reaches from new entrances are somewhat overblown. As long as the in-cave conservation measures are in place (eg taping, or even Willie Stanton type walls or restricted access areas such as the Columns in OFD) then the risk of damage to the cave is mitigated. Many caves have far far greater use than Draenen without damaging formations. Furthermore, most of the vulnerable formations are very obvious. Incidentally, the risk of damage to the tramway by Drws Cefn is a red herring as there is a simple alternative route via a footpath.

Whilst the wishes of the landowners are paramount, they take advice on the management of the cave from the PDCMG, who have convinced/agreed with them that a single entrance is the best policy. The PDCMG have now agreed to close an existing cave rather than the connection point, and as such a compromise now seems highly unlikely.  Personally I think that this is not in the interests of all cavers, and only serves to inflame the situation. Not all new entrances are neccessarily a bad thing; some are, some aren't, and they should each be considered on their merit. Given the likely potential extent of Ogof Draenen it is highly likely that alternative entrances will be found/engineered in the fullness of time, so we think about how to manage this in everyones interests, rather than stick our heads in the sand (mud?) and hope the problem will go away. 

I sincerely hope that when the PDCMG meet again in the summer, they will act on behalf of all cavers and come to some form of compromise over alternative entrances. Similarly GOG need to remember that unilateral action only serves to act against their interests. Lastly those 'forum abusers' who habitually use foul, offensive or threatening language on this forum should be barred. I can well understand why other members of the PDCMG don't wish to post on this forum. It helps no-one.

Happy caving!
Andy
 

SamT

Moderator
Cheers for that Andy  (y)

Andy Farrant said:
Lastly those 'forum abusers' who habitually use foul, offensive or threatening language on this forum should be barred.

Foul and offensive language is not a ban-able offence on this site. (how many folks do you know who are barred from your local pub for using the F word).

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,1872.0.html

Threatening language could be. Any reported threatening behaviour is looked at and considered on an individual case by case basis by the mods. People have been warned in the past and no doubt we'll have to warn people in the future.
 

AndyF

New member
Good post Andy

Don't want to read anything into it that isn't there, but could you clarify your comment below, re the use of the word "blocked"  Could you say what exactly that means at all?

Andy Farrant said:
As a member of the PDCMG (albeit it for some arcane procedural technicality without a vote), I can confirm that access to Ogof Draenen has been secured via the current entrance despite the lack of any compromise between GOG and the PDCMG, but that Drws Cefn will be blocked.



 

bubba

Administrator
Andy Farrant said:
Lastly those 'forum abusers' who habitually use foul, offensive or threatening language on this forum should be barred. I can well understand why other members of the PDCMG don't wish to post on this forum. It helps no-one.
You (and other members of your organisation who think they can dictate who gets banned here) should really keep your nose out of how this forum is run, it's none of your business whatsoever.
 
M

McBad

Guest
bubba said:
Andy Farrant said:
Lastly those 'forum abusers' who habitually use foul, offensive or threatening language on this forum should be barred. I can well understand why other members of the PDCMG don't wish to post on this forum. It helps no-one.
You (and other members of your organisation who think they can dictate who gets banned here) should really keep your nose out of how this forum is run, it's none of your business whatsoever.

Bubba, you've now had a go at editing that but it still reads like it was posted by a prize dickhead. 

If I were Andy Farrant I certainly wouldn't bother coming back here to answer further questions and, like Andy, I can understand why the PDCMC might wish nothing further to do with this forum.  It must be one of the most vitriolic and unpleasant places on the internet.

Can't understand why I remain subscibed here...  do me a favour and delete my membership of this forum.

Cheers,

M.
 

bubba

Administrator
McBad said:
Bubba, you've now had a go at editing that but it still reads like it was posted by a prize dickhead.
I couldn't give a f*** what you think of me, the fact of the matter is we won't have people coming here and  telling us who we should "barr".  As I've said many times before, this forum isn't a public service. If you don't like it here then go somewhere else. There's plenty of other forums on the web.


McBad said:
If I were Andy Farrant I certainly wouldn't bother coming back here to answer further questions and, like Andy, I can understand why the PDCMC might wish nothing further to do with this forum.
If the PDCMC (sic) think that they can come here and  try to dictate our moderation policy,  then they need to have a little rethink.


McBad said:
It must be one of the most vitriolic and unpleasant places on the internet.
You've obviously led a sheltered life.


How about you just stop typing "ukcaving.com" into your browser? Not rocket-science, is it?
 

Goydenman

Well-known member
Have I missed something, must have?? For a one liner at the end of a fairly lengthy post that was a strong reaction bubba - tell me there is other stuff going on behind the scenes to invoke that??? What you say may be right probably is but it is the way it was said - puzzled  :-\
 
R

restingcaver

Guest
Bubba,
I agree with Goydenman - that was a strong reaction to what seems to me to be a helpful post by Andy Farrant. It is your site but as Moderator it would be helpful if you didn't take sides and showed more balance in your editorial stance.
Tim
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I can understand why we shouldn't try to dictate how the forum is run, however it might be sensible to think about what makes people unhappy with some of the more aggressive stuff here. Surely we all want to get along together in some kind of harmony even if we do disgree?
 

SamT

Moderator
Goydenman said:
Have I missed something, must have?? For a one liner at the end of a fairly lengthy post that was a strong reaction bubba - tell me there is other stuff going on behind the scenes to invoke that??? What you say may be right probably is but it is the way it was said - puzzled  :-\

Yep - stuff going on in the back ground that non of Mods or New Owners of the site need really.  o_O

Best not go into details, suffice to say that its all blown over now and everyone should just chill.  8)
 

bubba

Administrator
Goydenman said:
Have I missed something, must have?? For a one liner at the end of a fairly lengthy post that was a strong reaction bubba - tell me there is other stuff going on behind the scenes to invoke that???

restingcaver said:
I agree with Goydenman - that was a strong reaction to what seems to me to be a helpful post by Andy Farrant.

This jumped-up "management group", though rarely even posting here have seen fit to attempt to demand that we to remove certain content and even ban certain user(s) because they don't like people saying things about them that they don't agree with. I'm merely pointing out that the running of this site and the moderation is none of their business and they won't get anywhere with such demands.  I'm not going to go into any more details as it is not my place, and I have no issue with the rest of Andy's post.

restingcaver said:
It is your site but as Moderator it would be helpful if you didn't take sides and showed more balance in your editorial stance.
It is no longer my site, and anyway as moderator I don't see why personally I can't have an opinion or cannot take sides. Again, it's down to this site being seen as some sort of public service. UKCaving has no particular requirement to remain impartial on anything; most of the time we are, but we're not about to be told how to do things by anyone.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
It is a great pity that the PDCMG have sought to demand that posts on this forum are removed and users banned as this can only make a bad situation worse.

At the outset of this very lengthy debate and multiple threads over the matter of Draenen and the PDCMG I suggested it was not right for the group to command dominion over others in the manner that they do.

What are we to think now that we have learned they have attempted to prohibit free speech?

Ian
 

graham

New member
Jackalpup said:
It is a great pity that the PDCMG have sought to demand that posts on this forum are removed and users banned as this can only make a bad situation worse.

At the outset of this very lengthy debate and multiple threads over the matter of Draenen and the PDCMG I suggested it was not right for the group to command dominion over others in the manner that they do.

What are we to think now that we have learned they have attempted to prohibit free speech?

Ian

Well, I am sure we can all guess what you will think. Me? I'll wait until I have some idea of what the complaints may have been, by whom, in what capacity and against what material.

FWIW Dr Farrant's post, which started this particular witchhunt may well have been aimed at me as I am aware that he may disapprove of some of the, shall we say, more robust language that has been used on this particular subject. Yet he makes it known that he is a member of the PDCMG and I am seen, I suspect, as a supporter of theirs. So I would guess, as I do not know the details, that the subject is somewhat more complicated than you would have us believe.
 

SamT

Moderator
graham said:
I'll wait until I have some idea of what the complaints may have been, by whom, in what capacity and against what material.

The details are probably not going to be publicised as they are between the owners of UKcaving and the parties concerned.  (though they have been strongly hinted at).

FWIW Dr Farrant's post, which started this particular witchhunt

what "witch hunt"  :-\
Witch Hunt implies some sort of victimisation of an individual which I certainly cant see any evidence of  :confused:
 

Alex

Well-known member
This is entertaining reading...

Whats coming up in tommorows episode I cannot wait! Its like watching Lost all sorts of things going on yet no one seems to know what is really going on. All we are missing is the Black Smoke? Or has someone been smoking in Dreanen find out in tommorows episode...

 
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