Peak Dale Tunnel

[Pete K]

I guess any publicity is bad publicity for secret sites. I thought we had a very open and workable access situation in the Peak District, these 'secret' sites do not sit comfortably with me. I don't know the details of this place having never heard of it before this thread so forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

 

[martinm]

I guess any publicity is bad publicity for secret sites. I thought we had a very open and workable access situation in the Peak District, these 'secret' sites do not sit comfortably with me. I don't know the details of this place having never heard of it before this thread so forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

I agree with you Pete, I hadn't heard of it until this thread, but as I said I 'coincidentally?' received an email from the former DCA cons officer who had been involved at the request of NE in the securing of the site. It is a part of a SSSI and apparently in his words "there has already been some documented damage". This is unfortunately what happens when these beautiful places are put in the public spotlight.

There are only 3 keyholders to this site and I suspect that the securing mechanism whatever it might be has been vandalised by someone who has then posted about 40 photos of it encouraging other people to go there who might not care about the cave / mine / tunnel as much as we do. BTW, the person who took the photos is NOT a keyholder!

I need to get up there asap and find out the situation. It doesn't matter if it's a natural cave or an abandoned mine or whatever. Ecton Mines have some great formations in them and they have formed over just a couple of hundred years or so.

 

[cavermark]

Ok the "formations" look nice but what will you get precious about next, cementicles under motorway bridges, culverts, railway tunnels or even icicles in caves

Get over yourself

Descending into personal bickering again, eh? Those formations are awesome and allow scientists to examine how they've been formed and how quickly adding to our knowledge of the subject.

I suggest YOU "Get over yourself" and suggest this thread is locked asap by the mods.

The first line was a valid point.  Surely, if destroyed, the formations would quickly reform. I'm sure Network rail etc. wouldn't hold back if they wanted to reopen a tunnel.

Isn't the chemistry fairly well understood for this sort of thing anyway?

 

[martinm]

The first line was a valid point.  Surely, if destroyed, the formations would quickly reform. I'm sure Network rail etc. wouldn't hold back if they wanted to reopen a tunnel.  Isn't the chemistry fairly well understood for this sort of thing anyway?

I have just received another email cavermark, and to quote parts of the email:- "The site is apparently scientifically unique" and from a Geophysicist at the BGS "as this is part of the SSSI could in theory present a case for prosecution". Prof. John Gunn is also involved. I would advise everybody to stay away from the site. I now have photos showing the entrance, car park, etc. And it is being locked due to the publishing of the photos and subsequent publicity.

Apparently:- "When we went on 3rd December a prominent stalagmite that we had been using as a water level indicator had been knocked over". (From the BGS Geophysicist.)

I have also been advised to get NE involved in this, again. This is serious stuff! We already know the names of two of the people involved.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer. SSSI rep to Natural England.

 

[Katie]

Before slagging off the people who took the photos has anyone checked with the keyholders to make sure it was not a legitmate trip?
I have been to the site, we surveyed it for the scientists and were accompanied by one of them. However someone else on the trip who is not a key holder took photos that are on the web. Not the person involved in this thread, but it just shows photos by a non-keyholder can have been taken in an acceptable way.
Personally I just don't like all the jumping to conclusions going on in this thread!
Innocent until proven guilty........

 

[Katie]

And it is being locked due to the publishing of the photos and subsequent publicity.

It was locked when I went and that was in November 2013. Don't think it had had much publicity prior to that judging by the number of people on here who had not heard of it, and others I know in the Peak caving world.

 

[cavermark]

The first line was a valid point.  Surely, if destroyed, the formations would quickly reform. I'm sure Network rail etc. wouldn't hold back if they wanted to reopen a tunnel.  Isn't the chemistry fairly well understood for this sort of thing anyway?

I have just received another email cavermark, and to quote parts of the email:- "The site is apparently scientifically unique" and from a Geophysicist at the BGS "as this is part of the SSSI could in theory present a case for prosecution". Prof. John Gunn is also involved. I would advise everybody to stay away from the site. I now have photos showing the entrance, car park, etc. And it is being locked due to the publishing of the photos and subsequent publicity.

Apparently:- "When we went on 3rd December a prominent stalagmite that we had been using as a water level indicator had been knocked over". (From the BGS Geophysicist.)

I have also been advised to get NE involved in this, again. This is serious stuff! We already know the names of two of the people involved.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer. SSSI rep to Natural England.

I stand corrected.

 

[martinm]

Before slagging off the people who took the photos has anyone checked with the

Katie, I'm not slagging anyone off, but they should think twice before publishing photos of a sensitive and vulnerable site for public viewing as it will just encourage people to go down there who as I said before may not be as careful as us. There has already been damage as I've already reported which was discovered on 3rd December 2014.

 

[droid]

There are only 3 keyholders to this site and I suspect that the securing mechanism whatever it might be has been vandalised by someone who has then posted about 40 photos of it encouraging other people to go there who might not care about the cave / mine / tunnel as much as we do. BTW, the person who took the photos is NOT a keyholder!

Not slagging off?

 

[Katie]

Ok, apologises Mel. It can be very hard to gauge the tone of written word on forums and I apologize if I took your comments the wrong way.

 

[bograt]

If this is going to develop into an issue for the DCA meeting on Feb.28th, could I please ask for all known details to be made clear to all officers by e-mail before then to avoid confusion and so we can decide a strategy.
I would like to take this opportunity to state that any activity at this location so far has been carried out without the knowledge and sanction of DCA council ----.

 

[Daggers]

I guess any publicity is bad publicity for secret sites. I thought we had a very open and workable access situation in the Peak District, these 'secret' sites do not sit comfortably with me. I don't know the details of this place having never heard of it before this thread so forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

I agree with you Pete, I hadn't heard of it until this thread, but as I said I 'coincidentally?' received an email from the former DCA cons officer who had been involved at the request of NE in the securing of the site. It is a part of a SSSI and apparently in his words "there has already been some documented damage". This is unfortunately what happens when these beautiful places are put in the public spotlight.

There are only 3 keyholders to this site and I suspect that the securing mechanism whatever it might be has been vandalised by someone who has then posted about 40 photos of it encouraging other people to go there who might not care about the cave / mine / tunnel as much as we do. BTW, the person who took the photos is NOT a keyholder!

I need to get up there asap and find out the situation. It doesn't matter if it's a natural cave or an abandoned mine or whatever. Ecton Mines have some great formations in them and they have formed over just a couple of hundred years or so.

Thank you for your concerns, and I agree I am not a key holder, but to accuse me of vandalising something before you have even been there to look at the lock is a bit presumptuous. I can assure you that the lock and gate are still perfectly secure and the mechanism is not damaged in any way, whilst in the system we were extremely careful not to disturb any of the formations and/or the equipment placed in there to monitor the conditions. I am not going to tell you how I got in and by what means, that is for me to know and no one else

At no point did I give out the location of this place and as far as I am aware it is still only known to a few.

 

[Jenny P]

We will definitely put this on the agenda for the DCA meeting on 28th. February.

I did know about it and knew that it was the subject of a scientific study but, as it isn't listed in Cave of the Peak District, I assumed that no-one would be bothered about it.  The publication of the photos has raised interest and I am now fielding emails asking about access.  It would seem that general access is not possible for the moment so it would be best if, for the time being at least, people don't try to gain access until we have clarified the position. 

It is, as has been said, an SSSI and is thus protected by legislation so any unauthorised access leading to damage or interruption of the scientific work in progress could, theoretically, lead to prosecution.  Once DCA have clarified the position we will let people know.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary

 

[Daggers]

We will definitely put this on the agenda for the DCA meeting on 28th. February.

I did know about it and knew that it was the subject of a scientific study but, as it isn't listed in Cave of the Peak District, I assumed that no-one would be bothered about it.  The publication of the photos has raised interest and I am now fielding emails asking about access.  It would seem that general access is not possible for the moment so it would be best if, for the time being at least, people don't try to gain access until we have clarified the position. 

It is, as has been said, an SSSI and is thus protected by legislation so any unauthorised access leading to damage or interruption of the scientific work in progress could, theoretically, lead to prosecution.  Once DCA have clarified the position we will let people know.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary

Just to let you know Jenny, that when we entered the said site we had no idea it was an SSSI . I do believe that there was some damage back in december, well I can categorically say that had nothing to do with myself, I have only been to the site once and that was just over a week ago.

Again and I stress this we did not damage any of the equipment, formations or gate and locking mechanism, and we saw no signs of damage either.

I apologise now if we should not have been there, as with most locations they are usually gated for safety reasons and being a caver we accept liability for safety, but under no circumstances would I ever damage any property to gain access to a site.

Also my photo's of the site have now been removed from both Facebook and my Flickr account and no longer viewable publicly, it appears that the original author of this thread said he say the photographs after someone else had shared them without my permission.

It should also be noted that this site is not listed in the Caves of the Peak District because it is not a cave but a disused railway tunnel and it's location was easy to find if you know where to research.

I was completely unaware that this was an SSSI as I no longer get involved with Derbyshire caving activities so am not up to date on all the SSSI sites, I now spend all of my time exploring and documenting mine sites and made made tunnel structures so reside in a completely different set of circles to the caving community.

 

[cavermark]

Does anyone know if there is a list of all SSSI sites publicly available online? It could be useful for people contemplating some of these activities as well as when planning new digs etc.

 

[ttxela]

Isn't visiting SSSI's positively encouraged?

http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/

 

[SeeJay]

Does anyone know if there is a list of all SSSI sites publicly available online? It could be useful for people contemplating some of these activities as well as when planning new digs etc.

This might suffice:

http://magic.defra.gov.uk/MagicMap.aspx?startTopic=Designations&activelayer=sssiIndex

You need to zoom in a bit for the SSSIs to be displayed.

I don't know where Peak Dale Tunnel is so I can't find the SSSI that's been mentioned.

If you find the relevant SSSI, then you can click on the (i) at the top, then on the SSSI site and it'll take you to a page with all the details for that site.

 

[Jenny P]

I have been asked by the scientists involved in the experiments in "Peak Dale Tunnel Cave" to post the following:

Unfortunately there has been significant misinformation regarding a site that has been referred to as "Peak Dale Tunnel Cave".  This is not a natural cave, it is a very short (~50m) section of tunnel that once connected a quarry to lime kilns.  The tunnel runs beneath lime waste deposits and leaching of these by percolating water has resulted in the deposition of spectacular hyperalkaline speleothems.  These are not formed by the usual processes of speleothem formation.  Because the entrance is in a SSSI DCA were asked by NE to gate the entrance to prevent damage.  Following an initial survey by Rob Eavis with John Gunn the landowner has given BGS scientists permission to install instruments in the cave and these are regularly monitored together with the chemistry of the waters and growth rates, which are highly variable.

Several photographers have joined monitoring trips but unfortunately it appears that others have gained access since November and some damage has occurred.  Because of changing water levels since the closure of the tunnel and the limited amount of lime waste above the tunnel that is the source of the lime in the deposits it is by no means certain that damaged stalagmites will ever recover.  Cavers are advised that there is absolutely no natural passage or possibility of accessing natural passage.  Photographers are asked not to try to access the site because of the experiments in progress and because of the very fragile nature of the deposits. When the experiments have been concluded (by January 2016) it may be possible to negotiate an access agreement but this is likely to be very restrictive to prevent damage to an unusual and special site.


It has also been pointed out that there are other issues:

The residents of the old Midland Hotel (now private house) are not happy for their 'car park' to be used by visitors.
There is no public right of way in the quarry (we do not know who uses the field).
The water in the tunnel is highly alkaline and potentially harmful.

I hope this clarifies the position - thanks to all who have supplied information.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon Secretary
 

 

[bograt]

Thanks for that Jenny, I don't recall the gating being discussed at DCA council, when was this?

 

[Jenny P]

Strictly speaking it wasn't gated at the request of "DCA" (i.e. by a formal request to DCA Council), but I understand that a past DCA Conservation & Access Officer was consulted.  There was no general access to the site anyway and special permission had to be obtained to gain access and set up the scientific experiments so I guess it wasn't thought necessary to take the matter to DCA Council.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary