• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

    The latest issue is finally complete and printed

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Peak Dale Tunnel

Jenny P

Active member
cavermark said:
Does anyone know if there is a list of all SSSI sites publicly available online? It could be useful for people contemplating some of these activities as well as when planning new digs etc.

DCA, in partnership with Natural England, issued a leaflet in 2010 called "Cave Digging on SSSIs?  Before you start ...  A Guide to Good Practice.  This is on the DCA website, from where it can be downloaded, and it contains a list of Peak District SSSI caves being monitored (though this is not a definitive list of all caves within SSSIs) and a map of locations of SSSIs with cave and mine interest.  Some of the contact addresses given have now become out of date so it is intended to re-print an updated version of the leaflet.

It is well worth reading because it answers most of the questions cavers would have about digging in SSSIs and gives information on where you can find out more if you need to.

Following discussions at BCA Conservation & Access Group Meetings it seems likely that other regions may consider issuing something similar for their own region.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary
 

Bottlebank

New member
mmilner said:
Katie said:
Before slagging off the people who took the photos has anyone checked with the

Katie, I'm not slagging anyone off, but they should think twice before publishing photos of a sensitive and vulnerable site for public viewing as it will just encourage people to go down there who as I said before may not be as careful as us. There has already been damage as I've already reported which was discovered on 3rd December 2014.

Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

 

cavermark

New member
Thanks jenny. I was thinking more generally though about whether information about all types of SSSI (not just cave related) is available, and if not where to find it...
 

NewStuff

New member
Bottlebank said:
Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

Taking what is said in this thread at face value, this is a huge issue.

I have seen the pictures (and bloody fantastic they are too). I figured out where it is, and was, (I stress *was*), planning a visit. Nothing at all even hinted at it being an SSSI, let alone one with experiments and monitoring in progress. It appears that the same circumstances happened to the photographer.

They don't know it's vulnerable or an SSSI with active experiments/monitoring, because no-one said so! I very nearly fell into the same trap. Had I visited, and  someone decided to throw thinly veiled accusations of criminal damage at me, I can assure you I would have been nowhere as polite and restrained as the photographer. That was wholly uncalled for, and out of order, and I would think an apology is in order.
 

martinm

New member
Bottlebank said:
mmilner said:
Katie said:
Before slagging off the people who took the photos has anyone checked with the

Katie, I'm not slagging anyone off, but they should think twice before publishing photos of a sensitive and vulnerable site for public viewing as it will just encourage people to go down there who as I said before may not be as careful as us. There has already been damage as I've already reported which was discovered on 3rd December 2014.

Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

Tony. You only had to look at the photos to realise was a 'sensitive and vulnerable site'! I know exactly where it is ( have photos) and have an offer from someone in the BGS to show me round, which I shall take be taking up asap.

 

martinm

New member
cavermark said:
Thanks jenny. I was thinking more generally though about whether information about all types of SSSI (not just cave related) is available, and if not where to find it...

All SSSIs whether cave related or not are on the magic web site.
 

martinm

New member
NewStuff said:
Bottlebank said:
Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

That was wholly uncalled for, and out of order, and I would think an apology is in order.

I'm sorry, but there was/is no official access agreement and damage has already been caused. I'm sure the photographer didn't do any of it, (and i appreciate him removing his photos, it is a shame that this sort of thing has to be done, as we all appreciate them and they were great photos), but it doesn't change the facts.

There will unfortunately always be some careless people going places breaking fragile straws and other formations. I've seen it happen, usually by accident, but places like Aussie Chamber in Darfar Ridge Cave which was trashed within weeks of an easy route into it being created, Gimli's Dream in Carlswark and most recently an off of the normal route chamber in Giant's Hole Upper Series was seriously trashed for no apparent reason!

Places like this need our protection. I'm sure there are others elsewhere in the country.

Read Jenny's posts above, we both have access to the same info. Off outta here for a bit now, CBA...
 

droid

Active member
NewStuff was referring to your possibly libellous accusation of vandalism of the lock to gain access, as well you understand, Mel.

 

richardg

Active member
quote author=mmilner link=topic=17620.msg232283#msg232283 date=1421985801]
NewStuff said:
Bottlebank said:
Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

That was wholly uncalled for, and out of order, and I would think an apology is in order.

I'm sorry, but there was/is no official access agreement and damage has already been caused. I'm sure the photographer didn't do any of it, (and i appreciate him removing his photos, it is a shame that this sort of thing has to be done, as we all appreciate them and they were great photos), but it doesn't change the facts.

There will unfortunately always be some careless people going places breaking fragile straws and other formations. I've seen it happen, usually by accident, but places like Aussie Chamber in Darfar Ridge Cave which was trashed within weeks of an easy route into it being created, Gimli's Dream in Carlswark and most recently an off of the normal route chamber in Giant's Hole Upper Series was seriously trashed for no apparent reason!

Places like this need our protection. I'm sure there are others elsewhere in the country.

Read Jenny's posts above, we both have access to the same info. Off outta here for a bit now, CBA...


Indeed there are many miles of cave kept secret from the public domain.including some major systems... There's enough places available listed in guidebooks to keep the majority happy......  Amongst the caves I've discovered, I've returned sometime after to find crystal floors reduced to mud, forest of formations wrecked and ancient artifacts distroyed or removed.... That's why some discoveries we don't advertise and some we do..... Discovering new cave is an endeavour to be justifiably proud about though, as experience has taught sometimes an over riding factor is preservation...

Richard
 

Bottlebank

New member
mmilner said:
NewStuff said:
Bottlebank said:
Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

That was wholly uncalled for, and out of order, and I would think an apology is in order.

I'm sorry, but there was/is no official access agreement and damage has already been caused. I'm sure the photographer didn't do any of it, (and i appreciate him removing his photos, it is a shame that this sort of thing has to be done, as we all appreciate them and they were great photos), but it doesn't change the facts.

There will unfortunately always be some careless people going places breaking fragile straws and other formations. I've seen it happen, usually by accident, but places like Aussie Chamber in Darfar Ridge Cave which was trashed within weeks of an easy route into it being created, Gimli's Dream in Carlswark and most recently an off of the normal route chamber in Giant's Hole Upper Series was seriously trashed for no apparent reason!

Places like this need our protection. I'm sure there are others elsewhere in the country.

Read Jenny's posts above, we both have access to the same info. Off outta here for a bit now, CBA...

Mel,

In an earlier post you said:

"the securing mechanism whatever it might be has been vandalised by someone who has then posted about 40 photos of it encouraging other people to go there who might not care about the cave / mine / tunnel as much as we do"

So, somewhere is kept secret, which means no one knows they aren't allowed in there. Then you accuse them of vandalism without any evidence to back up the accusation. Worse still you do it publicly. Then you make the ridiculous claim that you only have to look at the photo's to know it's a sensitive site. How were they supposed to know that before they went in and took them when it's been kept secret?

OK, you've partly corrected yourself in a later post, but I agree with Newstuff. An apology is in order. Obviously it's entirely up to you whether you are big enough to make it.

I love the way you've suddenly become a proponent of controlled access, after you've spent months arguing on here that cavers should have access to all caves. Yes, I appreciate this may not be on access land. You've spent months arguing that people like me who, amongst other things, want to reserve the right to protect sensitive sites by retaining some control, are wrong and that all will be well and cavers can be trusted to be sensible, but as soon as something in your own area is damaged you start telling us how there will always be a careless cavers and damage is inevitable.

Careful what you wish for. You can't have it both ways.

[Rantmode off]


 

NewStuff

New member
mmilner said:
Bottlebank said:
mmilner said:
Katie said:
Before slagging off the people who took the photos has anyone checked with the

Katie, I'm not slagging anyone off, but they should think twice before publishing photos of a sensitive and vulnerable site for public viewing as it will just encourage people to go down there who as I said before may not be as careful as us. There has already been damage as I've already reported which was discovered on 3rd December 2014.

Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

Tony. You only had to look at the photos to realise was a 'sensitive and vulnerable site'! I know exactly where it is ( have photos) and have an offer from someone in the BGS to show me round, which I shall take be taking up asap.

"A sensitive and vulnerable site" means take care when in here, and do not break stuff. It does *not* automatically mean "SSSI, Active experiments - No entry!". Until this thread appeared, I had no idea it was an SSSI, despite doing a fair bit of research to find out exactly where it was. I did however, know the formations were fantastic, and that I would need to take great care when in there. I suspect the vast majority of people would have thought this.

And you still owe the photographer an apology after your quite public accusation of criminal damage. You cocked up, and accused the wrong person of a pretty serious crime, so just apologise and be done with it before this nukes your reputation for doing good things underground.
 

martinm

New member
NewStuff said:
mmilner said:
Bottlebank said:
mmilner said:
Katie said:
Before slagging off the people who took the photos has anyone checked with the

Katie, I'm not slagging anyone off, but they should think twice before publishing photos of a sensitive and vulnerable site for public viewing as it will just encourage people to go down there who as I said before may not be as careful as us. There has already been damage as I've already reported which was discovered on 3rd December 2014.

Mel,

How are people meant to know it's a sensitive and vulnerable site if it's a secret?

Just a thought?

Tony

Tony. You only had to look at the photos to realise was a 'sensitive and vulnerable site'! I know exactly where it is ( have photos) and have an offer from someone in the BGS to show me round, which I shall take be taking up asap.

"A sensitive and vulnerable site" means take care when in here, and do not break stuff. It does *not* automatically mean "SSSI, Active experiments - No entry!". Until this thread appeared, I had no idea it was an SSSI, despite doing a fair bit of research to find out exactly where it was. I did however, know the formations were fantastic, and that I would need to take great care when in there. I suspect the vast majority of people would have thought this.

And you still owe the photographer an apology after your quite public accusation of criminal damage. You cocked up, and accused the wrong person of a pretty serious crime, so just apologise and be done with it before this nukes your reputation for doing good things underground.

No I don't need to do anything. The person involved should not have made those photos publicly available. It doesn't matter whether it's a SSSI or not. Common sense would have said, don't do it. So... who did do the damage then?  The camera tripod was set up where a stalagmite should have been, but was knocked over. And the scientific storage crates were moved, presumably to make way for the photography! Please inform me.  :coffee:
 
He went somewhere there was no access...we've all done it...
We're cavers/Mine Explorers whatever...not people that like being shepherded on organised coach trips...
Its probably a bit silly to post the photo's on t'interweb...but as long as he didn't damage anything where's the harm...
People that'll never go there get to see what it looks like...and people that fancy a trip now know where it is so they can have a peek when the heat dies down...
I've got no issues with either...
 

NewStuff

New member
mmilner said:
No I don't need to do anything. The person involved should not have made those photos publicly available. It doesn't matter whether it's a SSSI or not. Common sense would have said, don't do it. So... who did do the damage then?  The camera tripod was set up where a stalagmite should have been, but was knocked over. And the scientific storage crates were moved, presumably to make way for the photography! Please inform me.  :coffee:

Why in the f*** should they not have made those pictures viewable? They didn't know it was an SSSI or that there were active experiments. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, but you seem unable to grasp, is that keeping these places a very closely kept seceret is a double edged sword... they didn't know it was an SSSI etc...

As for "pirating" the trip, as said, we have all done it, and will continue to do it. You *know* this is the case.

The photographer stated, quite clearly, that no damage was caused. If you disagree, I suggest you take it up with him/his party. Knowing the person involved, I doubt they did, they tend to get quite annoyed about damage to places etc themselves. He removed the pictures without an issue when it was pointed out this *is* an SSSI with active experiments. That doesn't strike me as the actions of someone who would knock over stal just to get a picture.
 

paul

Moderator
[gmod]I think enough has been said about the subject now so any more bickering and I will lock this thread.[/gmod]
 

droid

Active member
I too would like to vouch for the photographer. I've seen him in action enough times to know that he's a careful and considerate man underground.

He's also not one for the criminal damage he's been accused of.
 

Jenny P

Active member
Sadly, through a number of PM's from people involved I now know rather more than I did about what has actually happened.

The original photos were taken by Rob Eavis, who surveyed the site for the scientists.  He posted them on his flickr pages without expecting that others would assume there was some "secret cave" and demand to be given access.

One person who sent me a PM explained that in fact access was gained by someone who, to quote "... [made] a plasticine mould of the locking mechanism ... he then fabricated a key to fit ... . This allowed us to open the gate with ease without causing any damage, we did re secure upon exit."

I pointed out to my correspondent that surely, he must have realised this was wrong?

The reply to this was:  "I was unaware it was a restricted site. As for the key, my friend often makes keys for various places, not because they have restricted access but mainly because we cannot locate a key or whoever controls access ..." ???

I do not know, and I doubt anyone now does, how many people got into the site or who did what in the way of damage.

From correspondence Mel and I have had with the scientists involved we now know that some damage was done, although who of the various people visiting the site was responsible is not known.  Someone moved equipment to the far end of the tunnel, through a fragile section of straws, and it had to be retrieved from there.  The comment was:
"There is no further evidence of damage to stalagmites (only the one previously noted) but I suspect that the straws have suffered a bit. There seemed to be more space to walk through than before. But this is a hard one to tell because they grow so quickly and also drop of their own accord when they get too heavy or when flow rates change, from water movement at high water levels and even as a result of people talking some distance away. While none of our monitors had been disturbed two of the crates that we use for keeping kit/computer etc out of the water had been removed to the far end of the tunnel and this made life rather difficult to start with until I spotted them and got wetter than intended recovering them (putting the straws at the far end at unnecessary risk in the process)."

So, all this fuss to gain access to a railway tunnel, less than 50m long, on private land for which special permission from the owners had been obtained to carry out scientific work!  The mechanism by which the flowstone forms was accelerated because of the very peculiar conditions in this particular site, which was underneath an old lime dump; now removed, so the flowstone will probably not re-form in the same way as before.  Of course the site was locked because scientific instruments were inside and should not be disturbed.  If people want to photograph stals in a railway tunnel, or even under a bridge, there are plenty of places you can find them without disturbing scientific work.  It's not that long ago that someone working in a cave in the Dales had to give up altogether because intruders moved his instruments and ruined his work - what a triumph for those people.  One hopes they were proud of their photos.

DCA has a proud record of trying to ensure that access in the Peak is available as freely as possible - we try very hard not to lock sites but instead, where necessary at the request of the owner, instal the now legendary "Derbyshire Lock" so all you need is a large adjustable spanner and you can help yourself.  There are some sites on private land where the owner insists that control be maintained and, where DCA is involved in the access, we try to arrange even this with the minimum of hassle.  However, there still remain a few sites where there is no access at present, though it may become possible at some time in the future (as at the Peak Railway Tunnel site).  It would be helpful if everyone could respect this and, if you are not sure whether a site has access, then please ask and we will  do our very best to help.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
 

reforma

Member
i for one would very much like to see the photos - i would never break in to see them so if there are a few photos i could see i would like that very much.
 
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