polyester rope.

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Agrophobic

Guest
Bob Mehew said:
Agrophobic said:
to take this topic even further from original- if you are clipped into a rebelay piont by your cowstails is this not the same as being attached to the main belay by a polyester rope? ie: theres nothing to absorb the force etc of a fall axcept your cows.

Not strictly true as there other components which do their little bit.  We have not talked about how much "peak force lopping" the resin component of an Eco anchor provides for example.  [Answer not much but it is important in considering how the rock reacts.]  But the major components for "peak force lopping" in a set up of cows tails attached to an anchor are the flesh in your body (death due to high peak forces is often due to the internal organs ripping away from their soft surroundings - look for the helicopter example in Crawford's paper) and the knots and rope in the cows tails.  Our problem is we don't really know how much each contribute. 

I see what you are saying. I should have said there is nothing extra to absorb the forces.
my point was that falling on to cowstails attached to polyester rope is no worse than falling onto cowstails attached to a belay. all other methods of absorbtion stay the same. flesh, organs, resin etc.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Agrophobic said:
my point was that falling on to cowstails attached to polyester rope is no worse than falling onto cowstails attached to a belay. all other methods of absorbtion stay the same. flesh, organs, resin etc.

At the risk of being pedantic, the behaviour of say your polyester rope tightly strung between two anchors (at same level) is going to be quite different from if it had a lot of slack.  Apart from differences in the height through which one falls, clearly the behaviour of the rope strung out tightly will be more shock absorbing than if it is loosely strung.  So the situation is probably (ie a guess) that falling on cows tails attached to a rope with a lot of slack is worse than if the cows tails are directly attached to an anchor which in turn is likely to be worse than if the cows tails are attached to a tightly strung piece of rope between the anchors.  I will leave it to you imagination to work out the case of a cows tail attached to a vertical piece of rope!

One of the interesting points made in the French report on Cows Tails was the concept of Fall Factor has to be closely analysed when you are dealing with short lengths of rope since the knot and crabs start to dominate matters.  So if you have a simple set up of say an anchor, a crab, a knot, say 10 m of rope, another knot, a crab and then your harness; the fall factor can neglect the two crabs and knots and one can say the potential energy derived from the fall is proportional to the length of the rope; but if the rope is say 0.2 m long, think again.

Hope that helps.
 

seddon

New member
I fear that Nigel, despite the many excellent things he's done (including recuing twits from tight caves!) may be remembered in caving posterity as the 'caver who was injured when a bolt failed'. If I recall he said that part of the reason for his injury may well have been the heavy tackle bag he had hanging from him at that point. As a side issue, I wonder whether he had it handing from his harness, central maillon, or belt...I'll ask him next time I see him.

Anyway, that's the only example of on-rope injury related to spit failure in this country that I've ever heard of; rather a small number to gather meaningful statistics from, I'd have thought. Probably more useful to study statistics gathered by the SSF and FSS, where people actually do use spits a lot (and quite a lot of them are not in good nick, for sure). Certainly ACT says a lot of sensible stuff about reducing the consequences of bolt failure, because for them it's a reality they live with, not just material for discussion on a forum.

Pitlamp could probably give more details on the rescue stats for the UK, Bob; if he can make the time!

But rest assured, Phil; I'd never dream of thinking that if the military do something, it must be safe. Their job is not safety (as I said), their job is to reduce our own casualties to an 'acceptable level' while ensuring that the opposition enjoys 'unacceptable attrition'. As cavers we expect to get home safely at night; not a luxury necessarily enjoyed by those in the service. Merely pointing out that our outrageous is the RMC's norm; rightly, we have a much higher expectation of big safety margins.

I'm sure that MSD will point out that back in the day, black Marlowe (other low stretch ropes are available) was a rope of choice for many expeditions. Lovely to hear it sing to you while prussiked up some dry expeditionary entrance pitch...how things change. Amazing that any of us survived, really...

PS Bob - better not carry on being reasonable, folks will switch off in droves to study better ranting!
 
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Agrophobic

Guest
Sorry, i don't agree that a rope strung out tightly between two anchors would be more shock absorbing, the shock would be transmitted along the rope and, if the rope was tight enough, would pop the anchors or break the rope. would you rig a y belay at greater than 120 degrees? i wouldn't, because the force on each anchor approaches infinity as you tend towards 180 degrees.
I would suggest that falling onto a vertical rope would be your best bet as this is how it is designed to be loaded.
The shock absorbtion would not change with angle of dangle, it's the same rope.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Ah I have clearly misled you.  When I said tightly strung, I did not mean so tight as to be in the range you envisage (but I will come back to this).  So let?s start with a description of the situation which I had in mind.  Basically you have a caver wearing a set of Cows Tails which roughly are waist level on a ledge.  Now let there be say four anchors, also at waist height, the first two of which are linked by the SRT rope for protection on the lead out to the last two  from which the pitch is rigged in a Y hang.  I inappropriately used the phrase ?tightly strung? for the rope strung between the first two anchors, but what I wanted to convey is that it is not so loose as to have a large loop between the two anchors.

First the peak loading comes about because the need to arrest a fall of a certain height by absorbing the kinetic energy created from the release of the potential energy equivalent to the distance of the fall.  As I said previously, what the French report makes clear, is the concept of Fall Factor has to be closely analysed when you are dealing with short lengths of rope since the knot and crabs start to dominate matters.  A pitch head situation is quite complex.  So let us get into gritty detail.

Case A - If the caver has clipped their Cows Tails into an anchor and then falls, then the height of the fall before it is started to be arrested is the length of the Cows Tails plus crabs etc, call it CT.  And the shock loading from the fall would only be absorbed by the rope in the Cows Tails (I will ignore the body and other smaller contributors), call it R. 

Case B - If a caver clipped onto the rope between the first two anchors, then the height of the fall is the small distance equal to the distance the SRT rope hangs below the anchors (call it x) plus the length of Cows Tails before the rope and Cows Tails start to arrest the fall.  But now the shock absorption would be undertaken by not only the Cows Tails but also the length of rope strung between the first two anchors.  This length of rope is not the distance x but something much larger.

Case C - If a caver clipped onto the rope between the third and forth anchors (ie the rope Y hang for the pitch), then height of the fall is equal to the distance the drop of the Y hang (call it y) plus the length of Cows Tails before the rope and Cows Tails start to arrest the fall.  I hope it is clear that in this case y is much larger than x.  Again the shock absorption would be undertaken by the Cows Tails but also the length of rope involved in this Y hang (plus the extra knot). 

Case D - And although this is not realistic, consider the caver clips onto the rope below the Y hang and then falls (call it z) but is arrested by a knot some located above the floor.  In this case the shock loading is taken by the long length of rope z plus the very small bit by comparison in the Cows Tails. 

The point I was trying to make is that in Case A, the energy to be absorbed is that of a fall of CT and that absorption of energy is undertaken by R, the length of rope in the Cows Tails.  Where as in Case B, the fall is CR plus x; ie a bit more.  However in this case, the absorption of energy is undertaken by the length of rope in the Cows Tails plus the length of the SRT rope strung between the first two anchors.  What I am embarrassed to admit is that I overlooked the point you made about increasing loads with angles.  However in practice I would suggest ropes are not so tightly strung that one gets up into the range where there is a potential for breaking the rope.  I made the stupid assumption that one would be gaining by the extension of rope length (which is strung between the two anchors) in absorbing the energy of the fall without taking into account the increase in load.  Thinking a bit further, I predict there is a cross over between these two competing components, but I do not have the time to work out where it occurs.

In Case C, the fall is Y plus y; ie much more than in Case B, much depending upon how much of Y hang one puts in the rope.  The absorption of energy in this case is undertaken by the length of rope in the Cows Tails plus the length of rope in the Y hang.  So there is more energy to be absorbed and a little more SRT rope plus Cows Tail rope to do it in.  In Case D, one has a fall of z and energy absorption by the length z of SRT rope plus Cows Tails.

My claim is that this means the peak loading the caver is subjected to, varies according to the height fallen and the amount of SRT rope and Cows Tails rope involved.  My guess was that Case B would give the least peak force, with Case A being larger and Case C being larger still.  I predict Case D will be yet larger (because there is only one rope involved below the Y hang) but it will flatten out when the length of rope becomes sufficient to make the contribution of the rope in the Cows Tails and the rope in the Y hang insignificant so that the concept of Fall Factor comes into play.  I now have to amend that claim since as you point out, for very tightly strung rope between the first two anchors, the Case B situation will magnify the loads and thus lead to rope break which whilst may be reducing peak force seen from the action of the rope, will unfortunately lead to another peak force seen when the caver hits the floor below.

I know this is highly theoretical and I have probably lost many readers a long time ago.  But I hope I have got the point across that predicting peak forces is not that simple in real world situations and in some cases will come out to your benefit rather than to your detriment.

Apologies for the delay in posting this, but I had other things I had to do.  I will now retire in embarrassment for forgetting the point about tightly strung ropes loadings.  :-[
 

seddon

New member
Hi Bob

As for Point D. I know of someone who managed to do similar when he descended a 30m pitch down to the next rebelay, attached to the rope only by his braking krab and not his descender as he imagined. In this case his pelvis was rather badly broken. To complicate this one, possibly, i) there was no dynamic link involved  ii) the short length of rope on one side of the rebelay loop perhaps counterbalanced the long length of the previous pitch in its shock absorption.

Really, most of it comes down to the stuff that we learned twenty odd years ago about rigging and protecting yourself, but with new data to support what we should be doing already.
 
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Agrophobic

Guest
Hi Bob.
I admit i had to re-read that one a few times to digest it but you didn't lose me. as i undersatnd you- in case C if the rope was polyester, you would have a FF>1 onto your cowstails as you would be falling further than their length.
whereas  if it was semistatic the fall factor would be less as the srt rope would absorb some of the force.
hence the recomendation to use semistatic.

With regard to the tightly strung thing- is clipping into a traverse line not similar to clipping into a y hang of greater than 120 degrees and should we be doing it? (opens can of worms) :LOL:
 

francis

New member
Agrophobic said:
With regard to the tightly strung thing- is clipping into a traverse line not similar to clipping into a y hang of greater than 120 degrees and should we be doing it? (opens can of worms) :LOL:

Not to mention tyroleans...

Francis
 

potholer

New member
With a tyrolean, you'd generally not be putting any sudden load on it, just a static load multiplied by whatever factor resulted from the angle of the rope.
Somewhere where a particularly tight line was useful, a slacker line could be rigged as a backup, to trail a cowstail along (and possibly to aid progression along the tight line).
 

seddon

New member
The Russians often rig two tight lines on tension traverses. Not sure if this is due to fears over abrasion with heavy usage on expeditions, or just psychological encouragement (they're rigged off the same spits).

Petzl indicates the use of two ropes on long 'recreational' tyroleans, in their catalogues in the past.

Traverse lines are always rigged nice and tight (to share loading over several anchors) and always good and high (shoulder level or above - to reduce potential fall factors) - aren't they?
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Agrophobic said:
as i undersatnd you- in case C if the rope was polyester, you would have a FF>1 onto your cowstails as you would be falling further than their length.
whereas  if it was semistatic the fall factor would be less as the srt rope would absorb some of the force.
hence the recomendation to use semistatic.

I can't say I like the way you expressed yourself here.  I think it is dangerous to try and talk about FF > 1 for such a fall, when what actually is happening is that both ropes are absorbing some of the energy.  The reason for using the FF concept is that one can show that since the potential energy lost for a fall of height say h, then if the rope is also h long, then you can take the ratio and just look at FF (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_factor).  This approach falls apart when you have situations like knots and loops which are a significant compared to the length of rope, such as in the case of a Cow's tail, or where the rope is actually 2 different ropes each with a different capacity to absorb energy.  And in my case C, it is even more complex since the shock is being absorbed by the length of rope across the traverse which is much larger than the drop.

In such cases you should really be looking at the capacity of each part and then summing them.  The trouble is I have no data to hand to do this; which is why I said 'guess' some where a long time ago about the whole problem. 

Agrophobic said:
With regard to the tightly strung thing- is clipping into a traverse line not similar to clipping into a y hang of greater than 120 degrees and should we be doing it? (opens can of worms)

Sure is a can of worms.  But again lets think about typically strung traverses and the amount the rope drops when you put a load on it.  I would claim you will get a moderate amount of drop compared to distance strung.  If the distance between anchors is say 4 feet, then for a drop of say 6 inches, you will get an increase of just over a factor of 4 (if my scribbled calculations are correct).  So if you don't drop onto the rope, then the static forces will be around 4 times your weight say 100 kg times acceleration due to gravity, say 10 m/s^2 which gives you 4 kN.  Now Lyon Equipment did cite some static strength results for 10.5 mm SRT ropes of between 24 to 28 kN (Table 3, p10, HSE CRR 364 2001 see some other thread for its web link or search HSE web site) .  [What this does make me realise is I must mull over static capabilities verses SRT rope diameter.]  However I suspect as soon as one puts in a small amount of shock loading, things change dramatically.  But recall that 4 kN is just within the dynamic requirements from BS EN 1891 of an SRT rope of 5 kN. 

So perhaps what this means is either don't fall or else always load the traverse line with your weight so as to limit the shock loading.  I wonder what actual practice is?  Or am I just being to theoretical?
 
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Agrophobic

Guest
As you say Bob, it's far more complex than we can calculate so we just have to do what we think is acceptably safe (to be completely safe, dont do it at all).
I was being theoretical with the loading traverse lines suggestion, i won't stop using them, and higher than my shoulder where possible, (i'm sure they always are Seddon :-[ ) but it did raise the question for debate. perhaps they just give you the psycological confidence so you think you are safe. on the other hand they will stop you falling down that pitch so you will be easier to rescue when you break your pelvis.
 
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Agrophobic

Guest
Just to round this one off, i got the spec for marlow black from marlow themselves.
It conforms to EN 364. abseil ropes.
"Peak force on 80kg body at FF0.3 shall not exceed 12KN".
so double that of semistatic.
 

footleg

New member
I have heard talk of the problems of theoretically infinite forces applied to taught ropes when loaded at 90 degrees to the tensioned rope. But in practise there is always some slack in the rope due to stretch, so while forces will be high, they never approach the theoretically infinite force often ranted about. So what sort of forces are typically involved in these situations? Has anyone tried to measure these, or done any drop testing of loads onto tensioned lines?
I've crossed tensioned steel cable traverses in French caves and the cave didn't self destruct under the load  :confused:
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Agrophobic said:
Just to round this one off, i got the spec for marlow black from marlow themselves.
It conforms to EN 364. abseil ropes.
"Peak force on 80kg body at FF0.3 shall not exceed 12KN".
so double that of semistatic.

Slightly confused as BS EN 364 is about test methods for PPE against falls from height and does not cover abseil ropes.  Can't also find leafing through the pages of 364 a reference to 80 kg, they use 100 kg.  I can't find by simple search abseil ropes within the British Standards catalogue. 

So I guess what they mean is they guarantee that the rope just after manufacture will not give a peak force of more than 12 kN using a 80 kg mass at FF 0.3 using the set up as specified in 364.  (And to be pedantic, SRT ropes are 6 kN at FF 0.3 with a mass of 100 kg not 80 kg.)

Thanks for the info; I will see if I can get a better search done of British Standards.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
footleg said:
So what sort of forces are typically involved in these situations? Has anyone tried to measure these, or done any drop testing of loads onto tensioned lines?

I have not heard of drop tests being done but I would welcome being proved wrong!  Calculating the static force is simple but I guess you know how to do that.
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
I can't find by simple search abseil ropes within the British Standards catalogue. 

The BSI keyword search facility is f**ng crap - we struggle with it daily at work. The way we find stuff is often to try to find a related or similar standard and then use the committee reference to find out what other standards the same committee is responsible for. Or we use the CEN/CENELEC/New Approach/Swedish Standards web sites in preference to having to struggle with the BSI search engine.

There isn't a specific standard for abseil ropes. Most ropes for this sold for this purpose are certified to EN 1891 but abseiling as an activity in its own right is not actually a PPE function so there isn't a mandate within CEN to produce a standard specifically for abseiling.

Nick.
 
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Agrophobic

Guest
Sorry about the confusion over en364, i missread the datasheet.
I can e-mail you the pdf from marlow if it's of interest to you. pm me your address.

yeah, the rope would have to reach 180 degrees to have infinate force on it and as you say this would never happen in practice but even at 120 degrees each leg takes 70% of the static load and this increases logarithmically the closer you get to 180. i can only guess at what happens when you shock load it.
but we still do it and consider it an acceptable risk.
 
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