Scout Group Numbers

[beardedboy]

Question:
What is the minimum and maximum group size for a scout caving group?

Background:
I've always understood it to be min 4 max 8. However, reviewing POR there seems to be a discrepancy.

"9.12.2.4 No underground activity must not be undertaken by a party of fewer than four."

If you follow the rules of English this means a max of 4.

If you go with the gist, it's a minimum of 4, but no max is specified as it is for other activities such as Hillwalking etc.

 

[mikem]

This says 4-8 for leader permit, but doesn't give numbers with personal ones:

Scouts - Caving

Check out our guidance on caving and download our cave route plan.

www.scouts.org.uk

 

[Ian Ball]

Isn't that a double negative?

 

[ttxela2]

"9.12.2.4 No underground activity must not be undertaken by a party of fewer than four."

Surely that means if your outing involves less than 4 people it must include underground activity. If you want an outing with no underground activity then you must have 4 or more people.

 

[beardedboy]

This says 4-8 for leader permit, but doesn't give numbers with personal ones:

Scouts - Caving

Check out our guidance on caving and download our cave route plan.

www.scouts.org.uk

I agree that 4-8 is what I have been working to, however, where does it actually say that? I can't find it anywhere specifically in the link you sent. I may just be being blind though.

 

[ChrisB]

where does it actually say that

Half way down, under Permit Limitations, Leadership: "a permit to lead caving will allow you to take a group of no more than eight people, and no fewer than four people (including yourself)"

 

[beardedboy]

Half way down, under Permit Limitations, Leadership: "a permit to lead caving will allow you to take a group of no more than eight people, and no fewer than four people (including yourself)"

Thank you. Being blind!

 

[cap n chris]

Isn't that a double negative?

Yes. The second negative, "not", looks like it was overlooked for removal when the sentence was edited to start with "No underground activity" instead of "An underground activity".

 

[beardedboy]

Many thanks everyone.

I have emailed the info centre with the POR error and asked them to update.

 

[badger]

My understanding is 3+1 permit holder = 4. 7 + 1 permit holder = 8.

 

[phizz4]

I agree with Badger. That's always been our interpretation in Staffordshire. That's in line with T1 and T2 terrain requirements.
Beardedboy, good luck with getting a sane reply from TSA in the present climate!

 

[PaulW]

I did suggest that the wording was the same in both locations when it spoke about group sizes during the last review.............. but it was deemed fine as it was........... 🤷‍♂️

 

[JoshW]

I met the (or maybe one of the) new safety and compliance officer(s) from the scout association recently on a course.

It may be noteworthy that there was an implication there would be significant changes around adventurous activity permits, potentially implying they’d be done away with.

Feel free to give me a buzz @PaulW for a chat for further details