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Update on Twll Du

Stuart France

Active member
Andy Farrant said:
Yes the PDCMG lost their geology officer, partly because of the farce that was Twll Ddu, but also issues with regard to the various entrances. None of these were helped by the actions of a certain S. France. There is a compromise to be had on all of the issues with Draenen, just no-one is interested in finding it. Rather the opposite, with people bent on inflaming things when the opposite needs to happen. That is also one of the reasons I haven't been to Whitewalls much in the past couple of years. What is it with certain older male cavers?? No wonder some caving clubs are finding it hard to recruit younger cavers.

I do believe PDCMG's Geology Officer has not attended any meeting or sent his apologies or provided any report since 2015.  That is long before the Twll Du saga.  And this forum is not an appropriate place for any Chelsea members to launch ad hominem attacks on other club members or to suggest that particular Chelsea members are the direct cause of any downturn.  Let's have no more of that kind of thing here please.

Plenty of realistic compromises have been offered for Ogof Draenen, incuding the one put by the late Nig Rogers in 2009 who suggested Drws Cefn should be abandoned or closed in favour of the Nunnery being turned into an official entrance.  That was voted down unanimously but for Nig's club vote.  Most recently, Cambrian offered to pay for a gate and its installation at Twll Du and that idea was rejected as well.

As to controlling access, Drws Cefn was connected to Ogof Draenen in the summer of 2009 and has been gateless since the following summer, so the discovery of a connection is ten years old this summer.  In the year April 2018-March 2019 there were just two visits through Drws Cefn, one inward and one outward on different dates, plus a couple of visits by me simply to read the counter.  The Nunnery entrance has been open again since the spring of 2016, if not earlier, so that has clocked up 3 years too, and again the footfall is astonishingly low.  At the original entrance the footfall is typically less than 200 persons per year or 50 trips per year.  And all this fuss, just for that.

The most significant person to leave PDCMG recently is Charles Bailey who is (or was) a trustee and signatory to the contract providing for access to the original entrance.  It seems that what to do if a trustee wants to exit was not adequately considered.  I suppose that to get Charles off the contractual hook now they now have to determine the original contract somehow and sign a new one without him - with the remaining two people taking full responsibiity - or find a substitute for Charles to bring the numbers back up to three, or persuade Charles to change his mind, or structure it in a completely new way.  But judging from the resignation letter he sent to the November PDCMG meeting he is advocating compromise solutions too, and there has been little sign of any such yet other than the idea of calling an access policy EGM which is yet to be realised.

Which brings me back to my original question:  when is this June PDCMG meeting and where is the venue?













 

Ogof anghenfil

New member
I heard that the PDCMG had decided to disband after the rumours of two further entrances since the concreting of Twll Du. Six entrances must of been too many.  :)
 

Maj

Active member
Stuart France said:
As to controlling access, Drws Cefn was connected to Ogof Draenen in the summer of 2009 and has been gateless since the following summer, so the discovery of a connection is ten years old this summer.  In the year April 2018-March 2019 there were just two visits through Drws Cefn, one inward and one outward on different dates, plus a couple of visits by me simply to read the counter.  The Nunnery entrance has been open again since the spring of 2016, if not earlier, so that has clocked up 3 years too, and again the footfall is astonishingly low.  At the original entrance the footfall is typically less than 200 persons per year or 50 trips per year.  And all this fuss, just for that.

I'm sure like myself a lot of cavers are just staying clear until hopefully things are sorted. With two or even three sides to the arguments and without being involved (thank goodness) it's difficult to establish who is right and who is wrong (if there is a right & wrong). Seems to me there are also historical grudges and personal differences that some will just not let go.

I've never visited a particular local mine/quarry on Mendip due to the animosity surrounding access. I'm sure many others are staying clear too.

The point I'm making is that visitor numbers may well be low because of the politics/animosity/grudges/personality clashes etc & not because cavers aren't interested in visiting the caves, mines or quarries.



Maj.
 

BradW

Member
So, not allowing yourself to get sucked into political matters means you get to do more caving, and to visit more caves?
 

royfellows

Well-known member
To most outsiders we are all 'potholers' and the politics and grudges that go with such a thing as 'potholing' would be regarded as beyond belief by many.
Sometimes one needs to step outside and look through a window to take in what is going on in the room.
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
Maj said:
The point I'm making is that visitor numbers may well be low because of the politics/animosity/grudges/personality clashes etc & not because cavers aren't interested in visiting the caves, mines or quarries.
 
Maj.

That is certainly true in my case. I can't be arsed with the politics, but when the common-sense stick has been sufficiently applied, I will be organising a visit to the system.

Chris.
 

Stuart France

Active member
The PDCMG website remains silent about their upcoming election meeting.

This next meeting of the cave management group is at 10am on Sunday 30th June at the Salisbury Community Hall in Gofilon, see:
https://venues4hire.org/venue/details/2976/salisbury-community-hall-govilon

As the meeting is not advertised on the PDCMG website, I have uploaded their agenda for you here:
http://cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdcmg/Agenda30June2019.pdf

This is their election meeting that takes place once every 2 years to elect a new committee.  The current treasurer is not seeking re-election.  The fixed aids officer resigned last year and his predecessor is back as caretaker.  The geological officer resigned a while back and the post is unfilled.  One of their trustees (signatories to the access agreement) resigned last year and is unreplaced.  The webmaster role is obviously not really working and the person nominally responsible is another trustee.  Chairman is not an elected post but happens to be none other than Les Williams in a personal capacity rather than as an extension of being chairman of BCA.

If the access to and management of the largest cave in Wales matters to you, then this a meeting you must attend.

Stuart France
CCC Access Conservation Officer



 

Graigwen

Active member
One effect of PDCMG keeping the times and dates of their meetings secret is to ensure it remains a closed and self perpetuating body.

From their constitution:
"5.2 Clubs wishing to join the existing Group shall make written application to a general meeting. Clubs will be required to submit their application to the Hon. Secretary two weeks before the meeting and expand and elaborate upon their application at the meeting if requested to do so. "

.
 

Stuart France

Active member
Indeed.  The last approved minutes on the PDCMG website for a quorate meeting (available from the archived copy at Wayback machine) were November 2015.  There are no published minutes or even draft minutes for any PDCMG business during 2017-18.  There are no officers reports for their upcoming election meeting on 30th June, not that they have many folks left with sufficient interest to write reports, it seems.
 

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Stuart France

Active member
Hmmm.  Not much going on here over the summer months... so replying to myself!

The new PDCMG website has gone live... with a photo of, er, the second entrance adorning their Home Page: see below.

Last November they voted to hold an EGM to review their single entrance policy after a decade of issues.  They explained the lack of progress at their June meeting in terms of the availablity of people to organise such a meeting.

They then agreed it should take place in November 2019 which is 10 years exactly after the last such meeting.

They agreed that plenty of notice should be given to member clubs and the caving community so as to consider the matter.

It is now nearly September and once again nothing has happened.

 

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Maj

Active member
How many entrances to the venue will there be and will they be locked ? :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: 
 
 
 
Maj
 
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