Should The Moderators Edit Forum Image Uploads ?

[The Old Ruminator]

May be worth a discussion. Frankly I have seen some awful images on Facebook regarding care and conservation. I have had to leave a couple of sites because of it. I certainly dont want to see the like here. But then should the mods let them through to give us a chance to moan about them ? I have done daft things myself and paid the penalty for it ( the tape was in a new place and my models arm was over it ). Sometimes the photographer in his haste to capture a great image lets things slip. However all should become obvious in the editing. Maybe the mods feel its not in their remit though I am sure anything offensive in the written word would not stay here long.

 

[Badlad]

We have very, very rarely been called upon to remove photographs. The only time I can specifically remember was when some photographs were removed after a complaint and by consensus with the original poster.

Images which highlight conservation issues are probably best discussed calmly and openly. You can be sure of a wide variety of views but that should help those who might have taken them understand a consensus better. There are a lot of sensible people on here who could advise.

Post a few examples OR and see what people think.

 

[aricooperdavis]

I think it would be difficult to find a fair and consistent criteria for deciding whether a photo was taken with sufficient consideration to conservation good practice to allow it to be posted. Particularly given that moderators are not conservation or cave photography experts. I'd be happier seeing the community kindly police this a bit with constructive feedback when photos are posted.

 

[paul]

I agree with aircooperdavis. A moderator's job is to ensure Forum users comply with the rules of the Forum and not to decide on whether content is suitable from a conservation point of view. Whether a photo or posting affects cave conservation should be decided by all users by discussion to reach a consensus and not by petty arguing.

 

[Brains]

In a way any pictures or publicity are detrimental to cave, mine or any other environment. The proliferation of graffiti, tea lights and litter amongst other things has to be down to this.
Sadly like many others I am now reluctant to post locations with my pictures.
The best way to preserve a cave or mine is to not open it up, and not visit those that are. Self defeating and depressing

 

[Ali M]

I would hope that UKC would set a high standard of good practice. I believe that most, if not all cavers have conservation issues at heart and acknowledge that it is our responsibility to preserve these beautiful environments in as pristine condition as possible for future generations. A couple of recent photos have been iffy and probably unacceptable from a conservation point of view. As a young caver I was taught to avoid touching stal or to walk on it with dirty boots, as the mud is absorbed by the flowstone. Once muddied it is spoilt and damaged for ever. In new discoveries we walk in single file until the best and hopefully least damaging route is determined. This even includes mud floors. If stal has to be crossed or stood on for photos or exploration, dirty boots are taken off and oversuits removed. However, it is worth noting that rough flowstone can also pick up fibres from socks and furry suits. We have found that clean wet suit socks are best if having to cross or stand on stal is unavoidable.

 

[mrodoc]

These two images illustrate why we get upset. The cave in question was hard to get into physically but not gated. One photo shows a chamber shortly after it's discovery and the other shows what happens when you rely on people being careful.
The model is the same, my wife who was appalled at what had happened to the glistening crystal floor.

 

[Badlad]

UKcaving ran a cave conservation reward scheme for many years which helped clear up a lot of, mostly digging, junk from caves. Digging junk is also a conservation issue - what is acceptable to some isn't for others for example. I do agree that most cavers are conservation minded to some extent. However, just by looking at a photograph it is impossible to tell whether it crosses any conservation boundary. The rights and wrongs tend to be subjective and ill-defined in any case. In many caves the accepted trade route is over flowstone or through formations. The Swildons 20 for example. You cannot expect moderators to be removing a photograph because someone is sat on a flowstone floor in a picture. You cannot determine good practice just from a photograph without being in on the actual shoot.

I've just had a quick skim through the lastest Descent magazine. There are dozens of photos with cavers sat on or climbing over stal and flowstone. The back cover and the Scurion advert are good examples, as well as several in the Caves of Ardeche and Hopeless articles. Similar in the BCRA review.

The good thing about today's caver is that they are generally more aware and more concerned about conserving caves that anyone ever was back when i started caving. Well done Yooth

 

[The Old Ruminator]

I think there are differences in what are long established " trade routes " and an isolated area of stal . The worst cave conservation problems are mostly quite distinctive but as I am now " The Stalactite Police " I shall be highlighting bad examples.

 

[aricooperdavis]

I shall be highlighting bad examples.

I think this is the way to go about it - constructive feedback, much like you might for the photographic qualities such as lighting and framing. That way new cavers get to learn the right ways to take their photos. As always, remember that there's a caver behind the keyboard on the other end who is putting themselves out there by posting their hard work.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Yes agree. I would hate to put any one off from cave photography or posting. Any critical remarks should be balanced by constructive comments. Really though photographic composition and lighting is down to personal taste or the circumstances at the time. Its not correct to be critical of that so best kept to conservation issues. Over the years here I have tried to show how simple it is to get reasonable caving photos. Also a bit with unedited video though they usually look like a Charlie Chaplin film. I do hope that the caver whose photo was " acknowledged " in the other thread does not take it to heart. I am sure he can move on and post some great photos.