The Three Counties System Entrances

[Pitlamp]

Aye, "one or two" Graham. 

 

[Pie Muncher]

Doesn't Lost John's have 2 entrances a wet and a dry ?

Yes - it does. I did wonder whether to include the Dry Entrance, but there's probably as much passage involved as in Swindon Hole and Corner Sink, so I think you're right - it should be included.

49 then!

Rumbling Beck Cave has more than one entrance, although, admittedly within the same broad shakehole feature. Depends how picky you want to be?

 

[langcliffe]

Rumbling Beck Cave has more than one entrance, although, admittedly within the same broad shakehole feature. Depends how picky you want to be?

Thanks for the thought - I did think about that  (I had a look the cave for the first time a couple of months ago), but arbitrarily considered  it to be the same collapse feature.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I thought I'd kept up with the major developments in The Three Counties System over the decades but one event seems to have slipped past me.  When did Short Drop Cave get connected to Big Meanie/Death's Head?  And where is the connection? Looking at my Northern Caves they were described as separate systems back in 1994.  Did the event get reported in Descent?

 

[langcliffe]

  When did Short Drop Cave get connected to Big Meanie/Death's Head?  And where is the connection?

The easiest way of getting to Death's Head from Short Drop is to follow the stream into the Gavel sump, take the first right and emerge at the downstream end of Lost John's, and take the first left into Death's Head Inlet and hence into Death's Head Hole.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

  When did Short Drop Cave get connected to Big Meanie/Death's Head?  And where is the connection?

The easiest way of getting to Death's Head from Short Drop is to follow the stream into the Gavel sump, take the first right and emerge at the downstream end of Lost John's, and take the first left into Death's Head Inlet and hence into Death's Head Hole.

Ok - are you saying that is the only connection?  Through the sump?

 

[langcliffe]

Ok - are you saying that is the only connection?  Through the sump?

Yes.

 

[Pete Brookdale]

has dead dobbin been dye traced to notts 2?

 

[Pie Muncher]

No.
Dead Bobbin route in Rumbling Hole ends at a downsteam sump pool which the survey indicates is a matter of only a couple of meters from the upstream sump at the bottom of Rumbling Hole(usual route). It has not been dye traced and anyone is welcome to try to connect them. Once achieved following the down stream water into Lost Johns, Rumbling Hole Inlet, would connect you to Notts II.
Sorry, re read your post.
Dead Dobbin has not been dye traced to Notts II, but may go to Notts III or IV.

 

[langcliffe]

No.
Dead Bobbin route in Rumbling Hole ends at a downsteam sump pool

I think that Mr. Brookdale was referring to Dead Dobbin Pot

P.S. This was posted before Mr. Pie Muncher modified his last post,

 

[Pie Muncher]

I thought I'd kept up with the major developments in The Three Counties System over the decades but one event seems to have slipped past me.  When did Short Drop Cave get connected to Big Meanie/Death's Head?  And where is the connection? Looking at my Northern Caves they were described as separate systems back in 1994.  Did the event get reported in Descent?

Just in case you miss read (like I have been prone to ;-) )note  -Short Long Drop is a new entrance that connects into Long Drop at the bottom of the first pitch. From there usual route to Dolphin Passage and into Deaths Head Hole. Hope this helps, else Langcliffe has it.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I thought I'd kept up with the major developments in The Three Counties System over the decades but one event seems to have slipped past me.  When did Short Drop Cave get connected to Big Meanie/Death's Head?  And where is the connection? Looking at my Northern Caves they were described as separate systems back in 1994.  Did the event get reported in Descent?

Just in case you miss read (like I have been prone to ;-) )note  -Short Long Drop is a new entrance that connects into Long Drop at the bottom of the first pitch. From there usual route to Dolphin Passage and into Deaths Head Hole. Hope this helps, else Langcliffe has it.

Thanks for that - explains my confusion.

 

[Cave Mapper]

.. and to bring it up to 50, you should include the old entrance to Lost John's, as shown on this survey:

http://cavemaps.org/surveys/other/full/Ind%20Foley%20Lost%20Johns%20System.png

 

[Alex]

So what is the longest through trip you can make now without breathing apperatus. Would it still be top sink to Pippikin or would the new connections in Leck fell make a bigger trip? When I say bigger I refer to the distance covered.

 

[molerat]

I think Top Sink - Bye George would be longer.

 

[langcliffe]

.. and to bring it up to 50, you should include the old entrance to Lost John's, as shown on this survey:

http://cavemaps.org/surveys/other/full/Ind%20Foley%20Lost%20Johns%20System.png

That's very interesting, Cave Mapper, but is there any evidence that there was an entrance there? The reasons why I have my doubts are that in in 1922 S.W. Curtiss wrote in the YRC Journal:

After one or two pools and a few trifling obstacles you reach a T junction and join another stream. Upstream you soon reach another fork ; the left branch is short, the right much longer. Both appear to terminate below surface sinks, and it is possible that the longer comes from a fine pot-hole, 200 yards east of Lost John's, which can be descended without much difficulty, and is named Lost Pot by Cuttriss.

So it wasn't an entrance in 1922.

The Balderstones wrote in Ingleton Bygone and Present in 1888:

The cave is now more spacious, and after having proceeded some distance further another large passage comes from the left.

which seems to confirm that they used one of the current entrances.

Your survey comes from Foley, I. (1930) Lost Johns? Cave. Yorkshire Ramblers' Club Journal Volume 6 Number 19: pp44-59, and he doesn't mention any other entrances in that report.

I suspect that the marked entrance is conjectural.

 

[andys]

Whats the current vertical and horizontal separation between Low Douk and the remainder of the 3-counties system?

 

[Pie Muncher]

About 2m horizontally! Only requires a little chemical persuasion, after you drain the sump

 

[oldboy]

The list compiled by Langcliffe of Three Counties System entrances got me looking closely at some of the names, and it transpires that several have over the years either changed or been shortened.
Iron Kiln Hole (Committee Pot) Notts Pot (Nottingham Pot) and Lancaster Hole, often described In Wilf Taylors diary - 1947 (RRCPC library) as Lancaster Pot.
Are there others?

Also of interest is where some of the names came from. Lancaster Hole (or Pot) is easy - George Cornes lived in Lancaster. Oxford Pot - well George when asked said " Well its close to Swindon Hole of course"
Where Swindon Hole came from remains a mystery to me.

 

[dunc]

The list compiled by Langcliffe of Three Counties System entrances got me looking closely at some of the names, and it transpires that several have over the years either changed or been shortened.
Iron Kiln Hole (Committee Pot) Notts Pot (Nottingham Pot) and Lancaster Hole, often described In Wilf Taylors diary - 1947 (RRCPC library) as Lancaster Pot.
Are there others?
Also of interest is where some of the names came from. Lancaster Hole (or Pot) is easy - George Cornes lived in Lancaster. Oxford Pot - well George when asked said " Well its close to Swindon Hole of course"

Slaughterhouse Drain/Sink or Rosy Sink as it is known these days.

As for Oxford Pot, there's a survey (BSA I presume) that calls it Oxford Hole.