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Undersuit for scottish winter?

Speleotron

Member
Does anyone here who goes out in scotland in winter ever use a caving undersuit as a baselayer? I'm trying to put some kit together for winter and I'm wondering if its a good idea. Maybe not for the walk in but I could get changed into it at the base of the climb.
 

glyders

Member
I've not done it myself for that. Changing base layer outside in the scottich winter sounds like a recipe for losing body heat - I always layer up and avoid removing lower layers unless really exerting myself (eg. digging a snowhole I just wear thermals and waterproofs). I expect for me it would be too warm for general use.
I have used my furry as a base layer for sailing and that works well.
 

Speleotron

Member
Ok thanks. I'm a bit confused over the whole winter clothing thing, with baselayers, midlayer, hardshell softshell etc and it all seems pretty expensive. I'm not hoping to save money to the point of not being safe but I'm trying to work out if what I have is enough. I've got a couple of helly hanson type thermal tops, a warm daleswear fleece thing and a good goretex waterproof. I'ma bit lacking for the legs, just some thermal long johns. I might buy some sallopetes or something.
 

glyders

Member
For a long time my basic scottish winter kit was:
merino wool top and long johns
thicker wicking top
goretex xcr salopettes and jacket (non-insulated)

I would take off the jacket, put on a buffalo (and possibly replace the jacket) if it got a bit colder, eg. standing around teaching or belaying someone. I also had a waterproof down jacket for if I was going to be sat still for a long time.
In all but the very worst weather I found that I got so warm due to the extra effort walking through snow that anything above the basic above meant I got too hot when in motion. A bit issue was sweat chilling when you stop (hence stripping down to the minimum waterproof layers when digging out a snow hole).

Nowadays I have converted to Paramo. The basic is a thick shirt, jacket and salopettes. These are all slightly insulating but with plenty of zips everywhere to vent. The first overlayer is an insulated waterproof jacket. This means that nothing needs to be removed to put it on. All the kit listed actively draws liquid water out to the surface so there is less issue with sweat or water/snow getting in.
I still have the down jacket as a final overlayer. The buffalo is now mostly used in autumn/spring or under my combats in winter.
 

Antwan

Member
Not quite the same but when I'm out bodying with SARDA in the winter ( i.e. Brown cove/helvellyn in hail and snow) I wear my under suit with waterproof over trousers and jacket for the walk in then swap the outer layer for 'soft shell' Ron hill bottoms and a fleece jumper before jumping in my sleeping bag for the day. Always nice sleeping out in a snow storm!

try going for a walk/jog in yours with just waterproofs then you just need to add midlayers.
 

georgenorth

Active member
There's no reason why you couldn't use a fury suit for winter climbing. Obviously you'd have to combine it with a shell layer jacket and trousers though. That said there's definitely better clothing available though!

To me the most important bit of clothing to carry is a decent insulated 'belay' jacket to put on to keep you warm whilst belaying, or if the shit hits the fan. The main criteria is it needs to have a big hood to go over a helmet, and be big enough to go over your other layers. I use a Rab Neutrino Endurance jacket, but there's loads of other things available (in synthetic and down), a lot of which are much cheaper. This is the one piece of winter clothing where I'd actually recommend spending a bit of money (although good gloves also make a massive difference).

I also really like soft shell trousers, but if you're just starting out then there's a pretty good chance you'll shred them in your first season, so buy anything that's cheap and fits reasonably closely.

I tend to walk in in just a long sleeve baselayer, or with a light windproof over the top, and then change into a fresh baselayer at the start of the route. It definitely helps keep you warm.

My main advice would be to beg, steal and borrow for this year and then buy stuff in the spring when you'll have a better idea of what you want, and it'll be much cheaper!

George.
 

underground

Active member
You don't say if you're climbing (and hence maybe hanging around on belays for longish periods) or walking (and hence staying on the move pretty much most of the time). Glyders' advice is pretty spot on for walking I reckon.

My experience is climbing - Cairngorms mainly, at any time of year when it was in nick, and Wales when the conditions and weather were mint and warranted a quick overnight drive and a quick walk in / route and return the next day. The latter I'd just wear a Buffalo type top over a baselayer, carry my shell and do the whole day like that and open zips etc. to vent. Legwear wise I can't remember as I had a few different things but generally it was powerstretch tights under a 3 layer shell bib (keeps you dry wading through snow, kneeling on turf etc. and is durable) or Buffalo type bibs for cold days.
Scotland was always a much bigger day, and I'd do it whenever - so even a sunny day in January could become a -13 night by the afternoon, although the kit wasn't too much different. Never rode the funicular and walked up the ski tows up to the plateau, 4am starts to get on the route at first light, so it was a hot and sweaty slog in - so I'd take a spare baselayer, take off the Buffalo and wet one at the start of the route / before putting on crampons, and change into the dry one (unlike Glyders, but you do it quick!), put the Buffalo and shell on, and crack on for some long, cold spindrifty belays interspersed with some pitches. Generally fine in the clothing, cold in the feet - I guess that's from wearing La Sportiva Nepal Tops, bought then before the insulated extreme version was available and never had plastic boots.

A couple of things I was taught were really important - one is gloves. I worked in a shop so had top notch waterproof leather palmed gloves for climbing in (that I could afford at trade price), but had spare liners and Buffalo mitts in the jacket - spare liners just in case a pair gets shredded or ends up wet, and the mitts to put on over liners whenever there's no need to use fingers.

I'm also pretty sure I never stayed hydrated or ate enough, and occasionally let my fag papers get damp - and learned that butane gas lighters are useless in the cold. I don't smoke now but on one occasion after a 14 hour epic in the Loch Avon basin managing to roll a fag in a whiteout with a wet paper and get it lit felt like the difference between walking out or laying down in the snow.

Oh (not assuming you can't already but it's always worth repeating), and make damned sure you can read a map, and walk on a bearing whatever the conditions. I never owned or had to use one but we always had one in the 'sack - a bothy bag big enough for your party is probably essential. As is a headlamp that's going to last the duration, and a basic first aid kit - plasters, lyon survival bag (although they say they're useless in the wind) painkillers, Victorinox Classic penknife, triangle bandage, wound dressings and a roll of Strappal tape , in a waterproof bag

If you're camping, keep all your stuff in a drybag and use a bivi bag over your pit to keep the condensation off, and consider some kind of 'hut bootie' so you can go outside and not put wet /cold boots on. A layer of aquasure or seamgrip on the soles is a good idea.

Also worth getting into the pub at the end of a day if you can to dry off in front of the fire.

Edit: George's comment about a belay jacket is a good one - I couldn't afford one at the time so never carried one, but it'd have been ace. I reckon if I was going to, I'd look at a Patagonia DAS Parka. Bloody expensive though, but Scottish winter is a serious business. I guess guys did it (and Everest for that matter) in tweeds and woolens, but you don't have to...

I'd say (actually answering your post in the first place) with the kit you have, stay sensible, don't go too far, make sure you know exactly how to get back home / back out quick, and don't go too high / into the middle of a plateau where it could get very nasty 
 

ah147

New member
I do a fair bit of alpine, scottish and alpine winter climbing.

I'll echo Undergrounds answer above. Echo the belay jacket but my reccommendation would be the rab generator alpine.

Gloves are important. To start with I'd buy a nice big set of synthetic mitts (?30) and two pairs of cheap ski gloves (?10). As you get out more you'll want better stuff, but this is plenty to get you started.

The spare baselayer a few have mentioned is a good idea, and soft shells are brilliant but expensive and not completely required for scottish winter. I started in softshells I had used alpine climbing (I did it backwards) and now only use hardshells in scotland. 9/10 times you'll end up wearing them, and if you don't over insulate inside them its not too bad.

Lyon survival bags are useless not only in the wind, but in general, but they are less useless than nothing! A bothy bag for the group is better, but more expensive. I've used both in anger. I now carry both. But if I was to get just one it would be the bothy bag.

Nobody hydrates enough or eats enough. Be sure to drink lots (of water) before and after climbing. I normally shove handfuls of haribo in every pocket to keep me going.

Also being an ex-smoker, I'll back up his comment, the two don't mix well.

Map reading is very important in some areas, less so in others. You don't know the difference yet! So cram up on them.

Other camping tip is ensure you get all the snow off yourself before you dive into the pit, spare socks for nighttime and dry the others against your stomach.


After this long and pointless post. I'd say its not a bad idea at all to walk out to a climb in baselayer and WP bottoms, take off WP bottoms, throw on undersuit, throw on WPs and do the climb. In fact I'd say its a pretty damn good system and might try it out myself in mont blanc this winter...
 
I bought a set of powerstretch salopettes back in 2005 for the winter season.  They're genius for winter climbing; they keep my core warm, stop a gap forming between top and trousers, warm, but not too warm etc, etc.

A few years later I took up caving.  I use the salopettes with a thermal instead of a furry.  Again, they're brilliant: warm, quick drying, more athletic cut than most caving kit etc etc.

These are the ones: http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/the_gear/clothing/thermal/powerstretch_salopette---273/

So I don't use a caving undersuit for winter climbing, but I do use a winter climbing undersuit for caving.
 

topcat

Active member
re belay jackets:  they must have a hood that will fit over your helmet, they must have a two way zip at the front so that you can actually belay when wearing it without having to lift it up.  Chest pockets are really useful.

There are a lot of insulated jackets that are marketed as 'belay' that are rubbish at the task, though they may well be warm enough.

For what it is worth I use a Montane Flux.  Winter climbing is my great passion, though I'm doing less now that I'm getting on a bit ;)
 

underground

Active member
topcat said:
re belay jackets:  they must have a hood that will fit over your helmet, they must have a two way zip at the front so that you can actually belay when wearing it without having to lift it up.  Chest pockets are really useful.

There are a lot of insulated jackets that are marketed as 'belay' that are rubbish at the task, though they may well be warm enough.

For what it is worth I use a Montane Flux.  Winter climbing is my great passion, though I'm doing less now that I'm getting on a bit ;)
Totally agree. When I mentioned spindrift earlier, I was thinking of sitting on a peg with the stuff pouring down my neck with the hood of my shell frozen enough to be a pain to pull over my helmet.
 

Speleotron

Member
Thanks for the advice everyone, I've got something sorted out. I'll probably start the season off with the CMD arete or something.
 

ah147

New member
Gardyloo gully is quite a fun trip thats doable by a reasonably fit novice with a more experienced partner.

Was my friends first winter climb with me. Should be more fun than CMD...
 

cavermark

New member
I used to wear my daleswear fibre pile for a lot of winter stuff. I'd wear it on the walk ins where the lack of windproofing stopped me overheating, then add hard shell trousers and jacket for the routes.

I modified it with armpit zips and an all round bottom zip (for a less chilly experience when dumping).

I also added pertex knees and seat, so that on warmer days I could climb in just that, without leaving all the fibres stuck to the ice at belays.

With hindsight, unless you are on a tight budget, the modifications required suggest that a standard one piece furry isn't the ideal kit, compared to 2 piece options suggested by others in this thread.
 

Piers_harley

New member
Scottish winter walk ins can vary a lot. Tabbing up to the Ben may well feel warmer starting out from the valley than starting out from the Cairngorm Ski station at 600+ meters. Personally I wear a base layer plus a waterproof/windproof shell depending on conditions. Remember to look after extremities and have the mindset that movement rather than clothing will keep you warm. I good quality, synthetic belay jacket may also be handy.

Hope this helps and happy climbing!
 
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