Would it be possible to get someone from CADW to write a few words to be posted here to say just what is at stake here? From the point of view of an outsider (who has, nevertheless, had a couple of trips in the cave in question) the business about the tramroad really is a storm in a teacup. Given that all the track and machinery seems to have ?gone?, all?s that?s left is a footpath.
Update on Twll Du
- Thread starter NameOfTheDragon
- Start date
At some point in the future, some of you so keen to challenge the actions of Statutory Bodies charged with protecting the various elements of the UK landscape and heritage, may be wanting them to protect something you hold dear. If I held such a role in a Statutory Body, I would be following this topic with great interest.
Dave Tyson
Member
I think the best solution is for the caving community is to chill, dig out the popcorn and watch 
CCC and BCA have disowned the problem and no money will be forthcoming to help Cadw block up the entrance. If Cadw have an unlikely change of heart then maybe help could be given.
It will be up to the landowner, Cadw, PDCMG and the Coal board to fund and construct a permanent seal - I don't think Cadw is particularly well off and I think the Coal board will want paying if they are involved. Time will tell, but I can see that ugly bit of fencing will be there for a long time
Dave
CCC and BCA have disowned the problem and no money will be forthcoming to help Cadw block up the entrance. If Cadw have an unlikely change of heart then maybe help could be given.
It will be up to the landowner, Cadw, PDCMG and the Coal board to fund and construct a permanent seal - I don't think Cadw is particularly well off and I think the Coal board will want paying if they are involved. Time will tell, but I can see that ugly bit of fencing will be there for a long time
Dave
martinb
Member
mch said:Dave Tyson said:Time will tell, but I can see that ugly bit of fencing will be there for a long time
The fencing is a hideous eyesore, far more so than a small hole. Appears to be defeating the object.
In Derbyshire they will have built a little coe (stone shed to the uninformed) over it, fitted a code lock and charge for entrance!
Both Scappycaver and Martin Laverty refer to the PDCMG meeting which took place last Sunday.
I did not attend the meeting myself but I have spoken to someone who did. I have been informed that there was virtually no discussion concerning Twll Du whatsoever, the official PDCMG party line being that the "problem" is being dealt with by Cadw and that everything is being left entirely up to them. In a way this is hardly surprising as, from the very outset, it has been clear that the PDCMG have been shamelessly exploiting Cadw's involvement in order to have their dirty work done for them. However, it is very disappointing that none of the other clubs or cavers attending the meeting saw fit to seriously query this policy when they had the chance. Although it is good news to my ears that Cambrian Caving Council have finally seen the light and have done everything they can to distance themselves from this current debacle, there are still far too many people going along with this senseless policy of appeasement. That's right, let's all just take the easy way out and sit back and watch it happen, shall we? Absolutely pathetic and any caving clubs or individual cavers displaying such an attitude should be utterly and totally ashamed of themselves. Just to remind you all, this is the finest entrance to the longest cave system in Wales and you are allowing it to be permanently concreted without even raising barely a whimper? Unbelievable!! You simply do not deserve the right to be classed as cavers at all in my opinion. When this is all over and done the final inevitable outcome will be down to you as much as to those who actually pour the concrete. History will be the final judge of your actions (or lack of them) but in the immediate aftermath I hope you will be very proud of what you have achieved. Well done!
I did not attend the meeting myself but I have spoken to someone who did. I have been informed that there was virtually no discussion concerning Twll Du whatsoever, the official PDCMG party line being that the "problem" is being dealt with by Cadw and that everything is being left entirely up to them. In a way this is hardly surprising as, from the very outset, it has been clear that the PDCMG have been shamelessly exploiting Cadw's involvement in order to have their dirty work done for them. However, it is very disappointing that none of the other clubs or cavers attending the meeting saw fit to seriously query this policy when they had the chance. Although it is good news to my ears that Cambrian Caving Council have finally seen the light and have done everything they can to distance themselves from this current debacle, there are still far too many people going along with this senseless policy of appeasement. That's right, let's all just take the easy way out and sit back and watch it happen, shall we? Absolutely pathetic and any caving clubs or individual cavers displaying such an attitude should be utterly and totally ashamed of themselves. Just to remind you all, this is the finest entrance to the longest cave system in Wales and you are allowing it to be permanently concreted without even raising barely a whimper? Unbelievable!! You simply do not deserve the right to be classed as cavers at all in my opinion. When this is all over and done the final inevitable outcome will be down to you as much as to those who actually pour the concrete. History will be the final judge of your actions (or lack of them) but in the immediate aftermath I hope you will be very proud of what you have achieved. Well done!
Dave Tyson
Member
Nig, I think the problem is that Cadw are holding all the cards. If they say they want it closed than there is bugger all the caving community can do. We can protest, but they seem unwilling to listen. AFAICT this is why the BCA and CCC have walked away.
If Cadw have a change of heart then maybe discussions could be had, a suitable lid fabricated and an access policy agreed - CCC and BCA would almost certainly fund the work.
Personally I think Cadw will push ahead and get the Coal Authority or another private contractor to do the work - but this will not be cheap and they will have to fund it out of their meagre budget at the expense of more important project work. I suspect the timescales for the work will be long (if not infinite).
just my opinion,
Dave
If Cadw have a change of heart then maybe discussions could be had, a suitable lid fabricated and an access policy agreed - CCC and BCA would almost certainly fund the work.
Personally I think Cadw will push ahead and get the Coal Authority or another private contractor to do the work - but this will not be cheap and they will have to fund it out of their meagre budget at the expense of more important project work. I suspect the timescales for the work will be long (if not infinite).
just my opinion,
Dave
Scrappycaver
New member
Fair comments, I'm sure 99% of us are in favour of Twll du staying permanently open and that this matter can be concluded.NigR said:
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SamT
Moderator
If the entrance is willfully sealed permanently, and there follows a fatal accident which might have been prevented if the casualty could have been evacuated from the cave swiftly through Twll Du, would there be grounds to sue PDCMG/CADW/Coal board for persuing/enforcing a single entrance policy?
#canofworms
#canofworms
shotlighter
Active member
Dave Tyson said:
Rather ironic if the Coal Authority were to deliberately block a second means of egress!
Rhys
Moderator
Regarding funding any works at Twll Du. Are Cadw actually complaining about a lack of funds? Those guys restore and maintain very many castles and other such places across Wales. Surely making this apparently small hole (I haven't seen it) safe will cost peanuts compared to the hundreds of thousands they must be spening elsewhere.
Scrappycaver
New member
To assume cadw have no finances are absurd..hopefully they will step up and repair the rest of the tram rd which nig r has elaborated in the past as dangerous.Rhys said:
Seeing the nunnery entrance has been open for 18 months is this down to the pdmc to make safe as continuous trips have pointed out the shuttering is deteriorating and needs urgent attention?
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If someone deliberately causes a hole to appear in someone else's land not having got permission to dig it in the first instance, then why should the owner or the Agency charged with protecting that land be expected to pay for restoring the ground? In a world where people take responsibility for their actions, it should be the people who created the hole who should bear the cost of repairing it.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Fair comments, I'm sure 99% of us are in favour of Twll du staying permanently open and that this matter can be concluded.
It's an (accidentally) illegally dug entrance in the middle of a scheduled monument...
From the outside it looks like the Draenen situation has been going on for so long that there is no room at all for reasonable middle ground, and people go as far as possible in one direction or the other regardless of whether it is sensible or not.
I don't believe in a single entrance policy. I do believe in respecting the hard work that caving volunteers put into managing caves, whether you agree with their actions or not.
I do believe in respecting landowners, but I also believe there should be a right to go caving where that does not impinge on others.
I do believe in protecting preserving our archaeological history - and I believe it is right that Cadw is empowered and active in doing that. The Offa's Dyke case was a farce.
I do believe that cavers, as the law currently stands, often trespass on other's (underground) land - but without harm to the landowner.
I don't believe that cavers should engage in outright criminality - whether it is causing digging damage without permission or knowingly damaging a scheduled monument.
I do think it is very unfortunate that Twll Du came up where it did, and if it had come up somewhere else it would be a great entrance - but it is where it is.
I believe caving needs to come out of the dark (so to speak), and present itself as a law-abiding sport, like other outdoor sports. This is how we will get greater acceptance, and with it greater rights to caving. The way to do this is not tacit acceptance of criminal behaviour in flagrant disregard of statutory bodies put there to protect our heritage.
I believe it's not all about Twll Du, it's not about Draenen, it's not all about the PDCMG and the CCC, it's not even all about caving - sometimes people need to see the bigger picture.
The only way there could ever be legitimate access to Twll Du is if Cadw agree - unlikely, but I expect my access bodies to be trying, not disengaging. Perhaps they are already satisfied it is not an option - in which case they should be working to rebuild relationships with statutory bodies. Hopefully I shouldn't need to explain why.
What is the possible gain of this course of action? What can be gained by withdrawing from debate with the only body who could offer legitimate access?
I'm sure there can be other entrances.
I may or may not _want_ Twll Du closed, but I accept reality, and I see no benefit in damaging relationships and fuelling the fire where there is little to no hope of success.
It's an (accidentally) illegally dug entrance in the middle of a scheduled monument...
From the outside it looks like the Draenen situation has been going on for so long that there is no room at all for reasonable middle ground, and people go as far as possible in one direction or the other regardless of whether it is sensible or not.
I don't believe in a single entrance policy. I do believe in respecting the hard work that caving volunteers put into managing caves, whether you agree with their actions or not.
I do believe in respecting landowners, but I also believe there should be a right to go caving where that does not impinge on others.
I do believe in protecting preserving our archaeological history - and I believe it is right that Cadw is empowered and active in doing that. The Offa's Dyke case was a farce.
I do believe that cavers, as the law currently stands, often trespass on other's (underground) land - but without harm to the landowner.
I don't believe that cavers should engage in outright criminality - whether it is causing digging damage without permission or knowingly damaging a scheduled monument.
I do think it is very unfortunate that Twll Du came up where it did, and if it had come up somewhere else it would be a great entrance - but it is where it is.
I believe caving needs to come out of the dark (so to speak), and present itself as a law-abiding sport, like other outdoor sports. This is how we will get greater acceptance, and with it greater rights to caving. The way to do this is not tacit acceptance of criminal behaviour in flagrant disregard of statutory bodies put there to protect our heritage.
I believe it's not all about Twll Du, it's not about Draenen, it's not all about the PDCMG and the CCC, it's not even all about caving - sometimes people need to see the bigger picture.
The only way there could ever be legitimate access to Twll Du is if Cadw agree - unlikely, but I expect my access bodies to be trying, not disengaging. Perhaps they are already satisfied it is not an option - in which case they should be working to rebuild relationships with statutory bodies. Hopefully I shouldn't need to explain why.
What is the possible gain of this course of action? What can be gained by withdrawing from debate with the only body who could offer legitimate access?
I'm sure there can be other entrances.
I may or may not _want_ Twll Du closed, but I accept reality, and I see no benefit in damaging relationships and fuelling the fire where there is little to no hope of success.
andrewmc said:
Just to focus upon each of the four above points in turn:
Unfortunately, the PDCMG do still misguidedly believe in a single entrance policy and they will do everything in their power to see that this is ruthlessly enforced.
Hence, even if Twll Du had come out on the hillside somewhere else the PDCMG would still have wanted it closed and would have done everything they could to ensure that this was ultimately achieved (just as they are continuing to do in regard to Drws Cefn, another entrance to Ogof Draenen which has been open for almost nine years and is situated on CRoW access land). They just wouldn't have had Cadw's involvement to act as a smokescreen for their actions.
Yes, there can be other entrances. How many would you like?
Are you a caver? Again, if you are, I am amazed that any caver should want anything other than to see such a fantastic entrance to such a fine cave system remain open for the benefit and enjoyment of all other cavers. Sorry, anything else is completely incomprehensible to me and will remain so I am afraid.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
Also remember that the Kinder Trespass of 1932 was an affront to the social norms of the day. However, look at the huge benefits it brought over time, which I think would be agreed with by almost everybody.
I don't have a problem pushing the boundaries to further the aims of our special interest group, hopefully in time benefits will be seen from that too.
Chris.
I don't have a problem pushing the boundaries to further the aims of our special interest group, hopefully in time benefits will be seen from that too.
Chris.