Update on Twll Du

[Rhys]

I too thought it was interesting that the caving bodies were now being asked to intercept queries, especially as a Cadw e-mail address was originally freely circulated and it was asked to direct queries to them. I suspect the individual there is fed up of hairy cavers hassling her and telling her how to do her job!

Or perhaps we're just back on the subject of wanting to be in control !

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I don't understand.

 

[Scrappycaver]

I too thought it was interesting that the caving bodies were now being asked to intercept queries, especially as a Cadw e-mail address was originally freely circulated and it was asked to direct queries to them. I suspect the individual there is fed up of hairy cavers hassling her and telling her how to do her job!

Or perhaps we're just back on the subject of wanting to be in control !

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I don't understand.

My position is that I was name dropped by the pdcmg for the entrance, subsequently I have spoken to the officer and the descent editor which will clarify this. If I had or have any queries or would like answers I will only go to the relevant bodies, Cadw

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[Jenny P]

Worth pointing out that the issue of damage to "Scheduled Sites" is not peculiar to Wales.  I can think of 3 relatively recent instances in Derbyshire, although none actually involved DCA as a regional council.

1.  A farmer, who didn't like visitors on his land, even on footpaths, bulldozed and completely obliterated a shaft on his land, probably because some cavers had asked permission to descend even though he'd refused permission and they hadn't pressed him.  It turned out it was "Scheduled Ancient Monument", being the remains of workings at the top of a historic mine, and the wrath of Historic England (or whatever it was then), descended upon him.

2.  A few years ago a group of cavers helpfully capped a shaft to allow safe access and in the process completely obliterated the surrounding tatty stone walls and tidied the site up.  Turns out it was a "S.A.M." because the stonework was the remains of a "Coe" of historic importance but the owner hadn't realised this and hadn't warned the cavers when they asked his permission to do the work.  This was smoothed over because they had asked permission and had left the site clear and tidy - though they were initially threatened with prosecution.

3.  A few years ago a caver started a small cave dig but didn't ask permission of the landowner.  He found some bones he thought were human and took them to the local museum to check this.  Turns out it was an important archaeological site which had been previously dug by archeos but then left open.  He was very nearly done for an ?8,000 fine but in the end it was agreed not to prosecute because he'd stopped as soon as he found the bones and had taken them to the museum to be checked.  The archeos were also held to at fault because they hadn't properly secured the site or put up any warning notices.  Following this the site was taken over properly and measures taken so that no accidental damage could occur again.

Only the last of of these events took place on CRoW access land.  In other words, it really doesn't matter where or whether CRoW applies, it is always a criminal offence to disturb a Scheduled Monument or an SSSI and anyone doing so could be liable for prosecution and a hefty fine.

It's not always obvious where a site is Scheduled, what for, or even what area the scheduling covers, when it comes to large scale remains of a historic industrial site covering a large area.  It may also be that, unknowingly, someone damages a site because they didn't realise it existed - but they are still liable if they do this.  And they certainly will be liable for prosecution if they carry on with the activity which caused the damage once it has been pointed out that it is a Scheduled Monument.

Probably worth while regional caving councils checking on areas which may have sites scheduled for any reason and highlighting these to cavers so they are aware of potential problems and don't accidentally get themselves into trouble.

 

[Ed]

From what I recall.  The "hole" was the result of an underground collapse and not an excavation.

Technically / etymologically it wasn't been excavated anyway (important to get facts right in terms of legal writs) as it dug from inside not "hollowed OUT"

from the Latin      excavatus ----  cavus = hollow , ex = out

:spank:

 

[Bob Mehew]

Probably worth while regional caving councils checking on areas which may have sites scheduled for any reason and highlighting these to cavers so they are aware of potential problems and don't accidentally get themselves into trouble.

For England, see http://www.natureonthemap.naturalengland.org.uk/MagicMap.aspx and turn on the "Countryside Stewardship Targeting & Scoring Layers".  For Scotland, see http://historicscotland.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=18d2608ac1284066ba3927312710d16d.  For Wales, see http://cadw.gov.wales/daysout/maps-and-itineraries/?lang=en.  For Northern Ireland, see https://www.communities-ni.gov.uk/services/historic-environment-map-viewer. 

The NCA Cave Conservation Handbook contained a list of caves which are SAMs but I don't have it in a legible electronic format.

 

[Bob Mehew]

List is

Caves Scheduled as Ancient Monuments (SAMs)

England

Cumbria
Kirkhead Cave, Lower Allithwaite

Derbyshire
Harboro Cave. Brassington
Creswell Gorge - palaeolithic and later prehistoric sites inc: Pinhole Cave, Mother Grundy's Parlour, Robin Hood's
Bassett Cave, Upper Langwith, Scarcliffe
Ash Tree Cave
Fox Hole Cave
Dowel Cave

Devon
Ashole Cavern, Brlxham, Torquay
The Old Grotto, Dyer's Wood, Torbryan
Kent's Cavern,Torquay
Pixie's Hole
Cow Hole
Tramp's Helter
Windmill Hill Cave, Brixton

Hereford and Worcester
King Arthur's Cave, Whitchurch
Merlin's Cave

Hertfordshire
Royston Cave

Lancashire
Dog Holes Cave, Warton Crag,Warton
Castle Hili, Halton with Aughton
Bader Hole, Warton Crag

North Yorkshire
Douky Bottom Cave, near Kilnsey
Victoria Cave, Langcliffe Scar, Langcliffe
Jubilee Cave, Langcliffe Scar, Langcliffe
Kinsey Cave, Giggleswick Scar,

Nottinghamshire
Rock cut houses N. of Castle Boulevard, Nottingham
Caves at Drury Hill, Nottingham
Caves under Nos 3-7 Middle Pavement, Nottingham
Creswell Gorge - palaeolithic and later prehistoric sites inc: Boat House Cave, Church Hole Cave

Staffordshire
Elderbush Cave, Wetton

Shropshire
Caratacus' Cave, Church Stretton
Kynaston's Cave, Great Ness

Somerset
Gough's Cave, Cheddar Gorge
Soldier's Hole, Cheddar Gorge
Sun Hole. CheddarGorge
Rowberrow Cavern, Mendip Forest
Saye's Hole, Cheddar Gorge
Badger Hole. Woakey
Rhinoceros Hole, Woakey
Gough's Old Cave
Great Oone's Hole
Plicken's Hole
Browne's Hole
Lime Hill Quarry Cave
Savory's Hole
Outlook Cave
Bracelet Cave
Aveline's Hole. Burrington Combe

South Yorkshire
Lob Well's Shelter
Dead Man's Cave, Anston

Staffordshire
Elderbush Cave
Ossum's Cave

Wales

Clwyd
Cefn Cave
Bont-Newydd
The Gap Caves - NW Cave & Shelter
Ffynnon Beuno
CaeGwyn
Lynx Cave
Rhos Ddigre Caves (3 no.)

Dyfed
Potter's Cave, Caldey Island
Nanna's Cave, Caldey Island
Daylight Rock Mesolithic Site, Caldey Island
Priory Farm Cave, Pembroke

Gwent
St Peter's Cave

Gwynedd
Ogof Pant-y-Wennol, L1andudno
Kendricks Cave & Upper KendricksCave,
Great Orme
Ogof Tan-y-Bryn
Ogof Arian

Mid Glamorgan
Ogo! y Pebyll, Pencoed

West Glamorgan
Three Chimneys, L1angennith
Cathole, IIston
Tooth Cave. L1ethrid
Longhole, Port Eynon

Scotland

Dumfries and Galloway
St Medan's Cave & Chapel, Wigtown
St Ninian's Cave, Whithorn

Fife
Wemyss Caves, Kirkaldy

Grampian
SCUlptor's Cave, Covesea, Moray

Highland
Alt nan Uamh, Sutherland
Smoo Cave, prehistoric occupation site

Lothian
Hawthornden Castle and Caves, Roslin,

Strathclyde
Raschoille - cave670m NW of Soroba House
Keil Cave
St Ciaran's Cave, Achinhoan Headland
King's Cave, Torbeg, Blackwaterfoot
Caves, S of King's Cave, Isle of Arran
Dunagoil- burial chamber, forts, caves etc
Ardeer Recreation Club (passage and cave) Western Isles
Loch Gille-ghold, cave settlement N of

 

[alastairgott]

My position is that I was name dropped by the pdcmg for the entrance, subsequently I have spoken to the officer and the descent editor which will clarify this. If I had or have any queries or would like answers I will only go to the relevant bodies, Cadw

You've had 5% of the posts on this topic and thats taken up 100% of your posting history.

Just saying.

 

[Scrappycaver]

My position is that I was name dropped by the pdcmg for the entrance, subsequently I have spoken to the officer and the descent editor which will clarify this. If I had or have any queries or would like answers I will only go to the relevant bodies, Cadw

You've had 5% of the posts on this topic and thats taken up 100% of your posting history.

Just saying.

Explain?

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[Minion]

Probably worth while regional caving councils checking on areas which may have sites scheduled for any reason and highlighting these to cavers so they are aware of potential problems and don't accidentally get themselves into trouble.

For England, see http://www.natureonthemap.naturalengland.org.uk/MagicMap.aspx and turn on the "Countryside Stewardship Targeting & Scoring Layers".  For Scotland, see http://historicscotland.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=18d2608ac1284066ba3927312710d16d.  For Wales, see http://cadw.gov.wales/daysout/maps-and-itineraries/?lang=en.  For Northern Ireland, see https://www.communities-ni.gov.uk/services/historic-environment-map-viewer. 

The NCA Cave Conservation Handbook contained a list of caves which are SAMs but I don't have it in a legible electronic format.

For Wales, the CCR cave map also has a SAM overlay which highlights all SAMs in South Wales at least (not checked N Wales), it also overlays SSSIs etc. too.

Very handy tool, ideal for checking the status of any caves/land before starting a dig.

 

[Jenny P]

Excellent!  Thanks Bob.

In Derbyshire we have a number of sites of interest to cavers which are NOT caves but have historical mining remains on the surface and also underground - hence will not appear in the list of "Caves Scheduled as Ancient Monuments (SAMs)". 

Nos. 1. and 2. of the examples I quoted are in this category - surface remains of mining historical interest having shafts which cavers use to access the underground.  Most of Bradwell Moor comes into this category and large chunks of other land around Castleton plus other significant areas.  Luckily Peak District Mines Historical Society are pretty well clued up about these areas nowadays but we still need to be careful about cavers investigating old mines which may be scheduled.  Even placing permanent anchors for rigging may be considered to be "damaging" to a scheduled mine site.

An additional quirk is that some caves have been worked by miners (who investigated and found a lead seam exposed in the cave), and some mines have broken into natural cave (which the miners then made use of, e.g. the dressing floors in J.H.).

As I understand it, Twll Du is rather different as it's natural cave which happens to be within a very extensive site scheduled for other reasons.

 

[tony from suffolk]

Given that, from what I can gather, actual damage to the site is minimal at most, that this entrance is to all intents and purposes a natural entrance on CRoW land, and the best way into a major cave system of great importance, might it not be a good idea to submit an ?application for scheduled monument consent?? Seems to me a pretty good case could be put together.

 

[Martin Laverty]

As Minion has pointed out, the Cambrian Cave Registry now has provision (under the Sites menu item) to apply the official mapping of Scheduled Monuments and SSSIs throughout Wales at the same time as showing entrances etc. There are also links to official maps which allow click through to more detailed information. To forestall the inevitable question: the Cadw (it's not an acronym - it's the Welsh verb 'to keep or protect') data was not added until long after Twll Du appeared.

Also, following my observation in this forum earlier on, I used the contact given in the original posting to ask (inter alia): "Why is there a stretch of some hundred metres, above The Tumble near Garnddyrys, where the tramway is mapped as a straight line but appears in the landscape to have been built as a curve to the east which is excluded from the listing? The LIDAR and Sites/Scheduled Monuments layers on the map at http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm.htm may help illustrate the point. I might just be incorrect in my interpretation, of course... " The reply was that: "Cadw are aware that the mapping for a section of the tramroad close to Garnddyrys is incorrect. This was a mapping error that occurred at the time of scheduling and is one of a number of scheduling amendments that we are looking at making within the World Heritage Site."

 

[royfellows]

On the subject of Scheduled Monuments, not really relevant to the thread OK, but of passing interest.
When a site is scheduled, the scheduling includes everything there at the date that it is scheduled, whether ancient or modern or whatever.

So a site which has just had a bench installed and is then scheduled, the bench is part of the monument. As scheduling extends to the underground, hangers in place at the date of the scheduling, or say someones dig, or whatever, yes you can guess the rest.

Just a bit of 'Obiter dictum'

 

[Ship-badger]

I am still waiting for a reply from CADW. I asked a number of questions, but in no way did I tell them how to do their jobs, and I don't have a hairy arse.
I would no more ask the PDCMG for the official line than I would ask my dog.

 

[NigR]

I'm also confused about the BCA involvement mentioned twice in the OP.  I've sat through all the recent BCA council meetings including the one just days before the site meeting referred to in the OP.  Draenen issues have not been discussed. BCA council has not sent any representative to these meetings and BCA does not take a view on Draenen.  If BCA do have a view on this matter it would be that this is a Welsh issue and would leave it to the regional council to deal with unless specifically asked to get involved.  If BCA were then asked to express a view it would most likely be a neutral one or supportive of regional councils efforts.  Constitutionally it is not able to do much else.

I find these comments from Badlad concerning BCA's involvement at the recent meetings (as reported by Sue Mabbett in the OP) rather surprising and somewhat perturbing. Is it not true that Robin Weare (BCA Acting Treasurer) attended as Observer on behalf of BCA at both the outdoor (site) and indoor (NRW Offices) meetings on 10 Jan? This is what I was told and I am, quite frankly, astonished that Badlad (as a BCA Officer himself) was not made aware of this, either at the BCA Council Meeting beforehand (be it officially or unofficially) or (even more amazing) at some point afterwards. If BCA Council did not send Robin to these meetings (and there is little doubt that all the outside bodies present would have thought he had full authority to represent BCA), then who did? Did Robin just decide to attend off his own bat or was he sent in by the BCA Executive (Andy Eavis, Nick Williams, Robin himself)? Either way, I feel there are questions to be answered, particularly as the matter could have so easily been discussed in Council just four days previously. Was not doing so perhaps a deliberate ploy in order to avoid mention of it being included in the Minutes afterwards (this seems to be 'modus operandi' for BCA at the moment)? Now, none of this might matter so much had Robin fulfilled his prescribed role and simply 'observed' as he was supposed to. However, I have every reason to believe this was not the case and that he played a very active part throughout all the discussions concerning Twll Du, leaving those assembled in little doubt as to BCA's position (that BCA support the PDCMG and the landowner in wanting the entrance to be permanently closed). If this is indeed the case, then I would suggest that he has far exceeded any brief he might have had (whomever it might have been from!). One thing is for certain: there has been an awful lot going on in the shadows here, all of which the vast majority of BCA members (and Officers) appear to be totally unaware, and this should be addressed forthwith.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is still a collapse .

And you are a troll.

An opinion and dependant on which side you're on.

I don't have a side ...

Rhys

   

 

[Rhys]

It is still a collapse .

And you are a troll.

An opinion and dependant on which side you're on.

I don't have a side ...

Rhys

   

I'm not sure what you find funny.

I don't have a side. But equally, I don't indulge in the sort of wishful thinking that allows CROW access to apply to an entrance that was opened in breach of CROW's stance on digging. Never mind the protected monument issue.....

If we want more entrances, they need to be openend with consent rather than covertly.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is still a collapse .

And you are a troll.

An opinion and dependant on which side you're on.

I don't have a side ...

Rhys

   

I'm not sure what you find funny.

I don't have a side.

But equally, I don't indulge in the sort of wishful thinking that allows CROW access to apply to an entrance that was opened in breach of CROW's stance on digging. Never mind the protected monument issue.....

If we want more entrances, they need to be openend with consent rather than covertly.

That is a valid point. However, taking an extreme stance and maintaining the barricades is clearly only making the situation worse.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

I have to say it. It seems to me cavers and committees spend far more energy arguing than actually caving. I gave up club caving and committees years ago and I am far happier for it.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I have to say it. It seems to me cavers and committees spend far more energy arguing than actually caving. I gave up club caving and committees years ago and I am far happier for it.

And that is another stance which doesn't get us very far. It is OK in the short term if all you want to do is go caving but if someone doesn't work to maintain and improve access then you will eventually not be able to go caving.