The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Really. It just looks like all this argument just complicates the issues.
Update on Twll Du
- Thread starter NameOfTheDragon
- Start date
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
In this case it looks like this was a natural cave entrance originally and merits more protection than a recent industrial site. Correct me if I am wrong.
Simon Wilson
New member
The Old Ruminator said:
Arguing? Discussing? Talking? Can only be good.
I haven't seen the site first-hand yet but I wouldn't be at all suprised of it wasn't an entrance that was previously open naturally. People have been filling in caves since they were hunter gatherers using caves as animal traps. There will be thousands of filled in caves.
crickleymal
New member
Bored now. Run out of popcorn too. 
Pie Muncher
Member
Simon Wilson said:
Wouldn't and wasn't in the same sentence. Could you please clarify what you meant. I think I know, just wanted to make sure.
Simon Wilson
New member
Wouldn't and wasn't in the same sentence makes sense to me. I would correct my grammar of I thought there was anything wrong with it.
The entrance might have been open at some unknown point in the past and might have been filled in at any time.
The entrance might have been open at some unknown point in the past and might have been filled in at any time.
crickleymal
New member
Pie Muncher said:
Makes perfect sense to me.
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
crickleymal said:
And to me.
Simon is saying that he doubts the entrance has ever been open naturally.
Simon Wilson
New member
Oh yes. I messed it up. Ah well, I think it's all a complete red herring anyway.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
I bet when the dram road was opened originally the locals thought what a blot on the landscape. Its funny how things turn around . Now it has to be protected. As for all the committee hot air I must admit we on Mendip might see things differently. Local cavers have been working together with local landowners for decades. When landowners down here feel they are being compelled to do things they shut up shop. Hence the closure of sites like Twin Titties. We have had two landowners now at Vurley without a committee or national caving body in sight. He gets a bottle of whiskey from us each Christmas and we keep the place tidy. Yes a bit off topic but my answer to the statement that you need committees and national bodies to keep caves open. As an ancient geological feature, possibly open at one time, Twll Ddu must be of more scientific value than a man made dram track. As an old man of some 55 years of caving experience I probably see things differently to the youngsters.
Simon Wilson
New member
It's more or less the same in the North. At the last CNCC meeting it was agreed to make some gifts to farmers - copies of the recently published guide book to caves on their land. I hope they get pleasure from them.
Probably pretty much the same in Derbyshire. If you are dealing with a farmer who owns his own land or a small local landowner or tenant farmer then the personal approach (replace a farm gate, bottle of whisky at Christmas, etc.) works well.
The difference is with a large landowning estate where you may be dealing with a firm of land agents who have no direct understanding of the issues. DCA is lucky that the largest of the local estates (Chatsworth) are very helpful and understand the issues. We also have an excellent working relationship with both Natural England and National Trust. Another landowner changed agents and the new one attempted to charge us ?100 per annum for a "licence to explore the pothole ...", though we've persuaded them to reduce this to ?10.
So, with the best will in the world, it's always somewhat hit and miss and land ownership can change. It can also happen that an owner changes something on their landholdings and suddenly realises that there are cavers with an interest and doesn't like it - the Holme Bank/Hall Chert Mine saga is a case in point where things suddenly went pear-shaped after years of easy access and we're still trying to sort this one.
That's why, IMHO, it's best if access is managed regionally by those in the know but with the possibility of BCA backup if it's requested.
The difference is with a large landowning estate where you may be dealing with a firm of land agents who have no direct understanding of the issues. DCA is lucky that the largest of the local estates (Chatsworth) are very helpful and understand the issues. We also have an excellent working relationship with both Natural England and National Trust. Another landowner changed agents and the new one attempted to charge us ?100 per annum for a "licence to explore the pothole ...", though we've persuaded them to reduce this to ?10.
So, with the best will in the world, it's always somewhat hit and miss and land ownership can change. It can also happen that an owner changes something on their landholdings and suddenly realises that there are cavers with an interest and doesn't like it - the Holme Bank/Hall Chert Mine saga is a case in point where things suddenly went pear-shaped after years of easy access and we're still trying to sort this one.
That's why, IMHO, it's best if access is managed regionally by those in the know but with the possibility of BCA backup if it's requested.
nickdegarepitt
New member
From experience NRW won?t take action, I submitted a freedom of information request and Gwent CC are top of the pops for alleged cases dealt with by NRW and no action has been taken, cases investigated include crossing tapes in OCAF, they even posted pictures on Facebook showing this, they also entered mines in Garth quarry and Draethen which are closed to cavers and again posted this on Facebook, again no action taken, NRW might think differently about this case but I somehow doubt it as they even admit they have little resource to deal with such matters. If the people who opened this entrance did so accidentally I support them and no action should be taken but if they blatantly ignored the rules of engagement they deserve what?s coming but I doubt NRW will pursue it, CADW might think differently but I doubt it.
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Scheduled ancient monument or not, from the October 2017 CCC newsletter http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/newsletters/2017/oct2017.pdf, somewhat ironically in the same issue as publishing that this new entrance has been opened:
And his sort of thing isn't exactly going to win friends and infludence people to gain support from the relevant authorities for CROW.
And his sort of thing isn't exactly going to win friends and infludence people to gain support from the relevant authorities for CROW.
Most cavers will know about SSSIs but not many of us know about SAMs, which can cover a large area of land which may, or may not, have caves on it.
If it's a SAM related to surface remains of lead-mining activity - we have lots of these in the Peak District - then it would be fairly widely known to local cavers because they'd almost certainly be interested in the mines themselves. It's not so likely that cavers would realise about SAMs relating to surface industrial workings which have nothing to do with caves or metalliferous mining.
In addition to the Twll Du area, I would think there might well be SAMs in S. Wales relating to the workings on Cribarth and also in the valley down from Sink i Gieth (have I spelt that right ?) because I can remember seeing remnants of pipe work and part of a chimney in that area when I was looking at some of the risings. I've not checked these to see if they are SAMs - but the Twll Du incident puts in mind that they might be.
Perhaps it would be useful for "someone" from C.C.C. to put out a general note saying which areas likely to be of interest to cavers are also SAMs. Then at least people would have a chance to check beforehand, 'cos I'm sure most people don't want to deliberately damage something of importance through ignorance.
If it's a SAM related to surface remains of lead-mining activity - we have lots of these in the Peak District - then it would be fairly widely known to local cavers because they'd almost certainly be interested in the mines themselves. It's not so likely that cavers would realise about SAMs relating to surface industrial workings which have nothing to do with caves or metalliferous mining.
In addition to the Twll Du area, I would think there might well be SAMs in S. Wales relating to the workings on Cribarth and also in the valley down from Sink i Gieth (have I spelt that right ?) because I can remember seeing remnants of pipe work and part of a chimney in that area when I was looking at some of the risings. I've not checked these to see if they are SAMs - but the Twll Du incident puts in mind that they might be.
Perhaps it would be useful for "someone" from C.C.C. to put out a general note saying which areas likely to be of interest to cavers are also SAMs. Then at least people would have a chance to check beforehand, 'cos I'm sure most people don't want to deliberately damage something of importance through ignorance.
The CADW site http://cadw.gov.wales/historicenvironment/recordsv1/cof-cymru/?lang=en shows Cribarth Quarries is a scheduled monument but not Sinc y Giedd or most of the areas of interest to cavers.
Quite a useful resource map for those wondering about a site. I look out at Cribarth SAM from my desk at home and did not know it was a SAM until I followed up on Jenny P's post.
This does not mean that you can dig anywhere you please and you would be best advised to seek permission from the landowners who, in this area, are most definitely monitoring.
Jopo
Quite a useful resource map for those wondering about a site. I look out at Cribarth SAM from my desk at home and did not know it was a SAM until I followed up on Jenny P's post.
This does not mean that you can dig anywhere you please and you would be best advised to seek permission from the landowners who, in this area, are most definitely monitoring.
Jopo
Martin Laverty
Member
Jenny: The latest Cambrian CC newsletter [ http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/newsletters/2018/jan2018.pdf ] has Part One of an article on The Historic Environment and Caving in Wales. Part Two is scheduled to include just what you suggest - "a discussion of scheduled monument landscapes across Wales that are close to known caves or mines or in land areas with significant caving potential."
Meanwhile, the Cambrian Cave Register map [ http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm.htm ] now includes both SSSI and SAM layers (for Wales, at least) under the Sites menu, so sites can be located relative to the scheduled areas. As Jopo notes, Cribarth is indeed a SAM, but remarkable little else in the Black Mountain area is - not even Ogof yr Esgyrn, DYO's archaeological Bone Cave. Elsewhere, most of the well known archaeological caves in Gower and North Wales are SAMs, but not all. The only really significant sporting caves which are substantially covered by SAMs are Ogof Fechan which is almost all under the "Pant Sychbant Mediaeval Hamlet", although neither its entrance nor its final sump are covered, and Will's Hole in the Sychryd valley (along with the Silica mine and several smaller caves).
Meanwhile, the Cambrian Cave Register map [ http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm.htm ] now includes both SSSI and SAM layers (for Wales, at least) under the Sites menu, so sites can be located relative to the scheduled areas. As Jopo notes, Cribarth is indeed a SAM, but remarkable little else in the Black Mountain area is - not even Ogof yr Esgyrn, DYO's archaeological Bone Cave. Elsewhere, most of the well known archaeological caves in Gower and North Wales are SAMs, but not all. The only really significant sporting caves which are substantially covered by SAMs are Ogof Fechan which is almost all under the "Pant Sychbant Mediaeval Hamlet", although neither its entrance nor its final sump are covered, and Will's Hole in the Sychryd valley (along with the Silica mine and several smaller caves).
royfellows
Well-known member
Jenny P said:
Cwmystwyth is a SAM, and is also the private property of Cambrian Mines Trust. Anyone who who wants to commence a digging project would be welcome to contact the trust who would probably approve as long as certain criteria is met. They would also then need to get SAM approval from CADW and possibly SSSI approval from NRW if it were a surface project.
