Vally ent rope has been removed
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
Alex
Well-known member
Well I said my peace and I don't want to fall out with almost everyone on the forum, so I won't argue anymore on here, just trying to look out for people is all :halo:
I just hope that there is no call out due to this combination of peoples sillyness (more widespread then we think) and no signs.
I just hope that there is no call out due to this combination of peoples sillyness (more widespread then we think) and no signs.
psychocrawler
Member
Valley? Entrance? Piece? What happened to DIR?
Re: Lancaster - they were (are they still there?) on the two gates leading from BPF and possibly even at the stile before you swing left for Cow/Lanc. If they are still there they really should be removed now!
As for Valley; there is every possibility you could have turned up at the tat after it has been ravaged by floods, damaged by years of passing cavers, left out of reach by a previous party, etc.. Then what?
Anyone who reads this forum should be aware of removal, ideally a brief note should have been placed in Descent to provide some information to those that don't use this forum. Signs, as well intentioned as they are tend to stick around far too long or end up being removed very quickly by people who disagree with their presence.
I can understand the point of view of Alex though, it has always (as long as I've been caving, not long in the grand scheme of things) had a rope of some description or another on it. It would be like someone mentioning removal of, random example, ropes on the 88ft pitch in Ease Gill - everyone assumes they are there when proceeding with a through trip of one description or another and I'd hazard a guess only a small portion of people actually make efforts to check they remain in-situ or take gear to rig it. At the end of the day cavers are just humans and prone to making mistakes or an error of judgement, making an assumption that a piece of tat will be in place is just one of those errors..
As for Valley; there is every possibility you could have turned up at the tat after it has been ravaged by floods, damaged by years of passing cavers, left out of reach by a previous party, etc.. Then what?
Anyone who reads this forum should be aware of removal, ideally a brief note should have been placed in Descent to provide some information to those that don't use this forum. Signs, as well intentioned as they are tend to stick around far too long or end up being removed very quickly by people who disagree with their presence.
I can understand the point of view of Alex though, it has always (as long as I've been caving, not long in the grand scheme of things) had a rope of some description or another on it. It would be like someone mentioning removal of, random example, ropes on the 88ft pitch in Ease Gill - everyone assumes they are there when proceeding with a through trip of one description or another and I'd hazard a guess only a small portion of people actually make efforts to check they remain in-situ or take gear to rig it. At the end of the day cavers are just humans and prone to making mistakes or an error of judgement, making an assumption that a piece of tat will be in place is just one of those errors..
langcliffe
Well-known member
dunc said:
When I have led a club trip through the Stake Pot Series, I have always checked the conditions of the ropes beforehand. If going through on my own or with a small peer group, I take the risk that if the ascending rope is in place, then the chances are that the belay is still good. If the rope isn't there, then no hardship.
Again, in Valley Entrance with a peer group I am confident that we can get into the roof tunnel without in-situ gear. Otherwise, I will pre-rig it.
Risk analysis is a vital caving skill, and from what Alex has said, his friends lacked sufficient competence in that skill to go on the trip that they had selected. Personally, and I am very conscious of the fact that Alex has already accused me of being "selfish and heartless", I don't want to see caves dumbed down to the lowest level of competence. Although it may a less easy course of action, I concur with mmilner's view that the level of competence of cavers should be increased so that they can cope with the requirements of the cave they have selected.
Alex
Well-known member
But the thing was one of the cavers was very experienced, hence the ability to free climb it, so I think they made this mistake of not checking because it was there the last 100 times. I think he was rather shocked not to find it there. Its not my place to teach people with over 20 years caving experience. So if he can make this mistake any one can.
Bah I said I was not going to say out more.
Bah I said I was not going to say out more.
langcliffe
Well-known member
So, your friends had the competence and confidence to enter the Roof Tunnel without fixed aids or pre-rigging the pitch. Excellent. So what did you mean when you said "when I hear of my friends potentially getting into trouble because of this attitude it boils my blood"? From what you now say, it seems as if they had it under control.Alex said:
I stand by my comments about risk analysis in caving. It's important when planning the trip, and it's important during the trip, and it's up to the group to work within those risks rather than expecting other people to remove them.
Gollum
Member
[/quote]
You don't need a rope for Idiot's Leap, you can easily traverse over it in either direction. If u r with novices u will already have ropes for the rest of the cave you could use anyway wouldn't you?
[/quote]
That's why I said a surprise rather than a rescue situation. I was just indicating that Alex was right that people do get used to things being in place over time.
You don't need a rope for Idiot's Leap, you can easily traverse over it in either direction. If u r with novices u will already have ropes for the rest of the cave you could use anyway wouldn't you?
[/quote]
That's why I said a surprise rather than a rescue situation. I was just indicating that Alex was right that people do get used to things being in place over time.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Alex said:
I've not fallen out with you Alex! I can see where you were coming from - and this little discussion has been fairly sensible anyway.
Doesn't "DIR" stand for "doing it right"? (It's to do with a method of diving which originated in America but is useless for most British cave diving conditions, hence certain CDG members corrupting it at one time to "doing it rong since 1946". One prominent figure on the U.S. scene in the 1990s lambasted our method of diving, despite the fact that it's evolved for our conditions and is wholly appropriate - so you can imagine what British caver humour made of that!)
graham
New member
This rope, was it fastened using a BotB, DBotB, Double-Fig8otB, Fusion or standard Fig8 Loop?
On the one hand this forum spends vast quantities of time exploring arcane differences in reliability between different knots, different belay methods, different ropes, etc and on the other it has people advising that you can rely on a piece of tat of unknown vintage and history fastened by an unknown method to an unknown belay.
Strange, really.
On the one hand this forum spends vast quantities of time exploring arcane differences in reliability between different knots, different belay methods, different ropes, etc and on the other it has people advising that you can rely on a piece of tat of unknown vintage and history fastened by an unknown method to an unknown belay.
Strange, really.
Blakethwaite
New member
Why not fill in Valley Entrance and do away with the potential problem altogether?
Fairly tongue in cheek suggestion obviously but I imagine that the trip down to the streamway was a great deal more committing & fulfilling before the (admittedly great fun) through trips were possible.
Fairly tongue in cheek suggestion obviously but I imagine that the trip down to the streamway was a great deal more committing & fulfilling before the (admittedly great fun) through trips were possible.
badger
Active member
for the sake of 15 minutes to pre rig the valle entrance, or even just to check (when the tat was in place) the condition of any insitu rope I would of thought was essential for not just your own personal safety, but of those you cave with. It is true that many people can free climb out of the streamway, this is assuming that when you get to the climb you are actually in a fit conditon to do so, and to put this in a situation on my last pull through trip, on one of the little waterfall sections of a climb down of 5 -6 feet, because I was chatting and having done many times before so only paying 95% attention I slipped, no great damage apart from a pulled hamstring, so actually getting then to the climb out of the streamway was very grateful of a ladder and lifeline, this was an incident that could very easily happen to your best or only climber in a group, and whilst they then might be able to free climb there would always be the possibility that the leg would not be able to. think any caver should never assume, always check, this should be 2nd nature.
so whilst you can see alex point of view, I would think it is upto all cavers to educate others experienced or not.
so whilst you can see alex point of view, I would think it is upto all cavers to educate others experienced or not.
I'm a crap climber, and fall off the Valley Entrance Pitch every time I attempt it.
However, on more than one occasion I've solved the problem of not being able to clmb out in the absence of a rope or ladder by throwing a rope over the bridge, tying off one end (there are several good natural belays below the bridge) and prusiking up the other side.
And yes, Blakethwaite, before Valley Entrance was opened up the trip to the downstream sump (in and out of Simpson's Pot) was much more committing and satisfying (especially on ladders).
However, on more than one occasion I've solved the problem of not being able to clmb out in the absence of a rope or ladder by throwing a rope over the bridge, tying off one end (there are several good natural belays below the bridge) and prusiking up the other side.
And yes, Blakethwaite, before Valley Entrance was opened up the trip to the downstream sump (in and out of Simpson's Pot) was much more committing and satisfying (especially on ladders).
Cave Mapper
Member
For the benefit of anyone who wants to do the through-trip without pre-rigging the VE pitch, probably the safest and easiest approach is to throw a rope over the bridge then use it to top-rope someone up the climb. They can then either set up a belay and top-rope the rest of the party up the climb, or set up an SRT rope.
The climb has a strenuous first move, particularly if you are not very tall, it then has an awkward step to the right near the top - and you would hurt yourself badly if you fell off from there.
So, unless you are very confident of your rock climbing skills, it's best not to treat this climb as a free-solo.
I've never tried the alternative of prussiking up a rope thrown over the bridge, but I expect it would be tricky to get off the rope safely at the top.
The climb has a strenuous first move, particularly if you are not very tall, it then has an awkward step to the right near the top - and you would hurt yourself badly if you fell off from there.
So, unless you are very confident of your rock climbing skills, it's best not to treat this climb as a free-solo.
I've never tried the alternative of prussiking up a rope thrown over the bridge, but I expect it would be tricky to get off the rope safely at the top.
