Video: rigging

[Fulk]

So you're talking specifically of someone getting stuck on their descent?

 

[Bottlebank]

Most "hang ups" I've seen have been caused by people moving their hand jammer at rebelays and pitch heads before their chest jammer or prussiking hard up to the knot.

 

[SamT]

re fatalities. . I guess I was referring to mini traxions (garlands/long churn) and was being a bit more broad in thr use of hung up... which can basically mean 'stuck on the rope'.. which if your in a wet/cold spot can quickly turn into a dire situation.

Most cases of folks being stuck at rebelays due to not being able to unweight a krab eventually get resolved quite quickly.  However. . fiddly krabs may well extend the time it takes.

 

[mch]

One point that has been raised a couple of times on this thread but which has not attracted any comments is the issue of clipping into the anchor or clipping into the rope. It's a while since I did any SRT (must get out more) but I always used to clip into the anchor. Can anyone out there comment on which is the best option and why? Or maybe it doesn't matter?

 

[cap n chris]

When rigging clip into the rope loop or anchor, depending on circumstantial considerations.
When derigging clip into the rope loop.
When passing a rebelay clip into the anchor.
When passing a deviation don't clip into anything.
There may be situations where these generalisations are overridden.

 

[me]

...
When passing a deviation don't clip into anything.
...

When passing a deviation I clip into the deviation crab so that I don't loose it  :-[

 

[Fulk]

So do I (unless it's a really easy one).

 

[Maj]

...
When passing a deviation don't clip into anything.
...

When passing a deviation I clip into the deviation crab so that I don't loose it  :-[

I would think that for most cavers it would depend on how slight or how severe the deviation is , also whether there is something to push against ie when in a rift. In other words a judgement made as to the likelihood of losing the deviation.

So I think this would come into the "There may be situations where these generalisations are overridden."

Maj.

 

[bograt]

I would think that for most cavers it would depend on how slight or how severe the deviation is , also whether there is something to push against ie when in a rift. In other words a judgement made as to the likelihood of losing the deviation.

So I think this would come into the "There may be situations where these generalisations are overridden."

Maj.

With you on that one Maj 

I am of the generation that pioneered SRT, how many 'experts' have abbed off of High Tor (200ft, mostly freehang) with a figure of eight on a terylene sailing rope tied to a natural belay with a bowline and got back up on Jumars ?

I still think that classic abseils and prussik knots should be included in the SRT curriculum, I used to do demonstrations at outdoor events, a 'flying angel' from a tree is not comfortable!!

I find this thread amusing

P.S. Thinking about it, this may be part of the reason my body is wrecked 

 

[Fulk]

bograt

I am of the generation that pioneered SRT, how many 'experts' have abbed off of High Tor (200ft, mostly freehang) with a figure of eight on a terylene sailing rope tied to a natural belay with a bowline and got back up on Jumars ?

Oh, bograt, you might have started something here!

How about abbing down Alum Pot (almost certainly using a figure-of-eight) on a piece of manky old plastic (i.e. polypropylene) lifeline rope tied to a tree and slung over the edge (no rope protectors/rebelays or other such wussy stuff)?

 

[bograt]

I'm thinking 1973 ??

 

[Leclused]

My 2cent on the two rigging topics

Clipping the anchor or the rope?

I would say in the two loops of the rope, because normally it should be a double anchor. To make life easier, you can hang a comfort crab through the two loops of the rope and clip in on the comfort crab. But that's up to the rigger(s) to do. It's sometimes handy to let the 2nd persons who descends place those comfort crabs. So he/she has something to do and  the rigger has less material hanging around ;-)

Passsing a deviation:
I clip myself in the rope loop behind the crab. This makes clipping the rope back in easier. And your lifeline can't become lose when clipping in the rope after passing.

BR

 

[Fulk]

Yeah, about then (i.e. 1973).

 

[Bottlebank]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

 

[Leclused]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

If the risk for a swing is not to big then you can do this. But not if the deviation is placed to avoid a sharp edge or water then you don't want to swing into the water or swing over a sharp edge with the rope. Then you should Always clip in imho.

 

[Bottlebank]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

If the risk for a swing is not to big then you can do this. But not if the deviation is placed to avoid a sharp edge or water then you don't want to swing into the water or swing over a sharp edge with the rope. Then you should Always clip in imho.

Not really, you'll always swing when above it so it doesn't make much difference. Watching someone treating a bit of tat as a rebelay by mistake is far more worrying.

Occasionally someone much shorter than the rigger may have no choice but other that I'd say never clip a deviation if you can avoid it. It creates a false sense of security.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

If the risk for a swing is not to big then you can do this. But not if the deviation is placed to avoid a sharp edge or water then you don't want to swing into the water or swing over a sharp edge with the rope. Then you should Always clip in imho.

That's OK for experienced people. This is the reason why beginners need to be taken to easy caves to hone their SRT skills in safety. Beginners should be told NOT to clip into deviations. The reason is because if they forget to unclip before moving on in either direction they will get hung up.

 

[Leclused]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

If the risk for a swing is not to big then you can do this. But not if the deviation is placed to avoid a sharp edge or water then you don't want to swing into the water or swing over a sharp edge with the rope. Then you should Always clip in imho.

Not really, you'll always swing when above it so it doesn't make much difference. Watching someone treating a bit of tat as a rebelay by mistake is far more worrying.

I must say good point here, I admit. But when descending it still makes some sense, no?

 

[Bottlebank]

I've always strongly encouraged people to never clip into deviations, there's usually no need to, and if they do before you know it you find them hanging from one.

If the risk for a swing is not to big then you can do this. But not if the deviation is placed to avoid a sharp edge or water then you don't want to swing into the water or swing over a sharp edge with the rope. Then you should Always clip in imho.

Not really, you'll always swing when above it so it doesn't make much difference. Watching someone treating a bit of tat as a rebelay by mistake is far more worrying.

I must say good point here, I admit. But when descending it still makes some sense, no?

Not really, all it does is complicate the job and encourage bad habits.

If you descend just below it and lock off properly you have two hands free to grab the deviation and krab, pull yourself across and reclip in one movement.

At the end of the day whatever works but my instinct is always to say don't clip it.

 

[Madness]

I've not done any SRT for years (must make more of an effort) and I never did much rigging as one of my regular caving partners insisted on doing all the rigging. It was never worth arguing, so I resigned myself to being a 'passenger'.
I've done a lot of climbimg though and I'm of the opinion that you can't follow set rules, because the rules don't work in every situation. You need to gain experience and knowledge and then use that to assess every situation individually. Obviously you need to be careful not to kill yourself whilst gaining the necessary experience and knowledge.

There's a multitude of ways of learning to do stuff safely. The important thing is to not be so arrogant to assume that you know it all and that your way is right (or safe). Be open to advice and always seek to improve your skills.