Warning - major collapse at Odin Mine

[SamT]

Hmm - I was going on this survey..

http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/images/stories/Castleton/odin%20mine.doc

Are you sure you're interpretation of  where the bus stop is on the survex file is correct - maybe it starts by the shaft and crushing circle. 

Hmm - maybe I'm wrong.

Given that the area is right on the border of the largest active landslip in the UK, it wouldn't surprise me if the original entrance to the cartgate was through shale, and now entirely lost.

 

[pwhole]

As far as I know, it was in limestone - the vein occupied the gap we see now, and the dip of the limestone under the shale doesn't really start until the last hillocks on the right, looking up the gorge. The higher-level workings in Amy Gutter vein, and in the roof of the Bell Chamber are on the shale boundary and they seemed reasonably intact (for shale) when we looked - and they're the earliest workings in there, making the current situation incredibly frustrating - we were just starting to make some progress in there. The workings inthe Bell Chamber roof are not on the survey at all, and were far more extensive than we expected on the one visit I made - mostly crawling about, but lots of small up and down workings leading off.

The article I have by HE Chatburn states categorically that the mine-owners blew up the entrance (in 1869) when it was abandoned, and they also blew a crosscut near the cartgate, which may the Widowers Vein blockage mentioned previously. I only wish I had a digital copy, but it's on paper - I'll try and get it scanned, as it has a scaled map of the site, with the line of the cartgate on it right to the road. It was in an old PDMHS bulletin from 1962, but they haven't transcribed that one yet.

 

[Roger W]

I only wish I had a digital copy, but it's on paper - I'll try and get it scanned, as it has a scaled map of the site, with the line of the cartgate on it right to the road.

Probably teaching grandma to suck eggs, but if the map is in black and white, set your scanner to scan in black and white and save the file as a .gif  -  it takes up less space than a colour .jpg file and doesn't introduce coloured shadows.

I'd got it into my head from somewhere that the cartgate went right under the road to somewhere near the crushing circle, but with the entrance blocked.  Guess it's a lot more complicated than that, though... 

 

[pwhole]

Roger

I don't have a scanner, that's the problem! I'll try and photograph it instead.

But no, the cartgate was open to day from Odin Cave onwards to the crushing circle - the original track just crossed it, I think, and because the eventual road altitude was much higher, the cartgate was culverted over - the original gigantic spoil heaps (they had cottages on top of them they were so large!) were used to make the road ballast. I've got a good comparison photo of 'old' Odin with now, and the difference in height between the two ground levels is astonishing - these photos seem no longer available from the main ME site, but managed to find the link:

http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/view_picture.asp?id=29635

And also visible is a seemingly deep hole going down into the gorge - presumably the entrance was blown in just beyond this point.

What also puzzles me is why Royse and co didn't just use the entrance (called 'Hanging Rither' on the old plans) we all use today. I have another article by Mike Smith, again from early 60's PDMHS notes, about a section 'recently opened by Rother Valley Caving Club' accessed via an inclined shaft at the end of the entrance level - however, it's unclear whether he's talking about the large 37m west pitch, or just the smaller east pitch we use to access the cartgate, as the following description seems to mix the stempled passage with another, that I don't recognise.

But either way, it suggests that the cartgate has only been accessible from the current entrance for the last 50 years at most. I've asked Jim Rieuwerts about some of these ambiguties ages ago, but think I need to press him some more!

One other image at the bottom of this page - a slightly fanciful but vintage illustration of Odin before the gorge was completely cut out, complete with cartgate entrance...

http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/h/waltheof.htm

 

[Roger W]

An excellent series of pictures there! 

The two views side by side have really got me thinking!

I visited there a few times when I was a kid at school - that would be in the '50s - and have vague memories of scrambling up to Odin cave to peer in (yuk! - muddy!).  And I recall visiting again with my own kids when they were small (1980's?) and thinking that the ground in front of the mine and cave had been greatly altered and levelled off then.  Unfortunately my memory is sadly less than photographic, but I do now remember thinking that some big changes had taken place since I had been there last.  Would this all have happened around the time that the road across the face of Mam Tor was finally closed?  I presume that would be when the bus turning circle was created.

And when did the land become National Trust property?

Maybe someone with a better memory than mine can throw some light on the matter!

 

[SamT]

Fascinating,

In the black and white photos, I'm sure Pete's photo has been taken from further away and slightly to the left. 

Am I right in thinking the depression in the foreground of the older photo is still visible in petes just at the base of the spoil heaps in the foreground.

I know it can be tricky - because of differing lenses etc,  but it would be nice to see one taken from the exact same spot.

Always tricky to decide if the sketch is taken from a position below the current bus stop, e.g. by the crushing circle area, or actually showing the gank mouth from the position of the bus stop now.  If so - would the artist not have included odin cave as a feature of interest.

Eeeee - if I could travel back in time.

 

[pwhole]

Here's another photo I found online from an old caving group - this was taken (I'm guessing) in the 1940's or just after, when there was a spar-washing plant to the right of the mine - there's a part of a water trough (part of a log-washer?) visible - the right-hand flank of the vein is identical to today, just half-buried in crap:

When this plant closed, the hillocks from that were levelled into the ground in front of the cartgate, burying what can be seen in the older photo. As far as I know, when the Mam Tor road was redeveloped, yet more stone was thrown onto the site, so I'm estimating 4-5m at least to get back to the original entrance. There's also another image (a painting) online of the old track and cartgate entrance, but I can't find it now. Most of this stuff is also in the PDMHS special bulletin from 1976, which is one of my prize pieces! I've photographed the Chatburn article, and will post asap.

 

[pwhole]

Sam - it's Phil, not Pete

Here's the Chatburn article - sorry for the low quality, but it'll eat up my site bandwidth otherwise - I don't have a Flickr account yet.

It looks to me like the collapse outside is a long-standing one - probably on the line of the cartgate, behind the interior blockage, which I estimate to be around the second boulder pile. As can be seen, Royse's shaft was sunk at the interesection of Widowers Vein with the main Odin Old Vein (the gorge and cartgate) - the map also hints that the level was possibly open at the gorge floor at the time they sank the shaft. Either way, there's a possible entrance at top level now, and a possible dig at the (clearly deliberately) blocked lower level:

http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/view_picture.asp?id=29526

 

[danthecavingman]

I offer the following at risk of being wrong and Phil having more knowledge than me....
Sadly there is little prospect of ever exploring the full extent of Odin. It was extensively reworked for fluorspar from the 1920's onwards, the flourspar miners deliberately allowing the stopes to collapse after they had finished extracting the gangue minerals (which had by then become useful). Most of the fluorspar was taken out via the Mam Engine Shaft (via the original 'Cartgate'), the shaft being partially driven through shale and now collapsed as well.
If there is a lead into Odin, it is via Mam Tor Swallet, the water from there appeared in Odin at the 'Swine Hole (?)' from what I recall of the research I did while back. This would lead into Odin somewhere near a part of the vein called 'Brass Castles'. However I suspect this is all conjecture given what has gone on here historically. Having dreams of getting into Odin Mine is a bit like expecting to get into a coal mine that has been seamed out and allowed to collapse. It's just not there anymore.

'Come fellows drink! Drink up your fill! For soon we must go up the hill, where Odin rich in shining ore, shall give us glasses, plenty more. So luck to Odin, Golden Mine, where metal bright like the sun doth shine....'

 

[SamT]

Sam - it's Phil, not Pete

:-[

 

[SamT]

As a complete aside,  the name Odin it seems, used to be Oden in the bar records.  And if one puts on your thickest 18th century Derbyshire accent could sound like
"Owd 'un" or
"Old 'un"  or
"Old one" leading to
"The Old One" dear chap. 

And since it was perhaps the oldest leadmine in castleton (roman times) it must be true.  I've just made up some history.  cool.

 

[pwhole]

Dan

Is that for certain? I got the impression the later sparring (around 1908 according to my records) was external mainly, and didn't really touch the inner workings much. I've got the SUSS survey of Mam Engine Shaft by Chris Fox (is that Goydenman?), and it didn't sound too collapsed on there - maybe flooded. Or has there been further exploration since?

The Mam Tor Swallet link is definitely right, as John Gunn told me he'd dye-tested that one ages ago - I also wanted to look at Jose Hole in the cartgate on our aborted collapse trip, as there's clearly some water activity coming from above and to the south-west - ie Blue John Cavern direction...

Also I think there may be another entry directly under the bus terminus on the top part of the road, near Blue John - there's a huge fissure in a large hollow, filled (again deliberately) with a huge pile of very large rocks. Maybe the 18th C Levy entrance...

I've got to pop out now regrettably, but we'll carry on this conversation later...

Phil.

 

[pwhole]

The other issue that concerns me with Odin is the survey that everyone uses - everything that's on the survey is still in place, (apart from the new collapse), but there's plenty that isn't on the survey, and there some areas on the survey marked as 'blocked' that aren't. Until we chatted about Amy Gutter vein, I'd never heard of anyone going up there as everyone I asked said it was blocked, and, as you confirmed, it isn't. So I'm tempted to be sceptical about blockages until I've actually seen them.

But there's so much to go at in Odin, and so many visited over the years that it beggars belief no-one ever has published anything about the internal workings beyond the few scraps we have. Puttrell went in there, as did plenty of others afterward, but few seem to have written about it in any detail. No-one's ever even done a proper surface survey, as far as I know. I still haven't been down the 'big pitch', although I would have by now if we hadn't been kicked out, but again, I still wonder whether all the western leads are permanently gone, or just messy. Collapsed deads can always be re-stacked.

I would say the best non-destructive leads would be to attack Widowers Vein (top and bottom levels) and just see where they go. I've only been 20m or so in there myself, as I was always on my own, and had no idea of the floor, what with the survey not including it! I have seen it flooded, when the rest of the mine wasn't, but it's usually dry, especially lately. And then as second option, to push Amy Gutter vein west. And there's always Knowlegates Sough to find - I'm certain I've already been on part of it...

 

[Goydenman]

Dan

Is that for certain? I got the impression the later sparring (around 1908 according to my records) was external mainly, and didn't really touch the inner workings much. I've got the SUSS survey of Mam Engine Shaft by Chris Fox (is that Goydenman?), and it didn't sound too collapsed on there - maybe flooded. Or has there been further exploration since?

The Mam Tor Swallet link is definitely right, as John Gunn told me he'd dye-tested that one ages ago - I also wanted to look at Jose Hole in the cartgate on our aborted collapse trip, as there's clearly some water activity coming from above and to the south-west - ie Blue John Cavern direction...

Also I think there may be another entry directly under the bus terminus on the top part of the road, near Blue John - there's a huge fissure in a large hollow, filled (again deliberately) with a huge pile of very large rocks. Maybe the 18th C Levy entrance...

I've got to pop out now regrettably, but we'll carry on this conversation later...

Phil.

Yep Chris Fox, Goydenman that's me!
I reopened Mam Tor Engine shaft and abseiled in to floodeed shaft. Not wearing caving gear at the time and not fancying get wet came back out. Someone else went in (can't remember who and found passage going off at water level. Water turned left along 'resurgence' passage while straight on went to shaft. I placed scaff bar on my second trip to get down shaft into shale chamber with no way on. At the lowest part of the chamber I made a poor attemt at a dig. Managed to get below shale to rock band and then dig ran in. Moved onto another dig - but but still think this is a good lead.

 

[Mrs Trellis]

Fascinating stuff. Went down Odin in the early 60's and wasn't impressed. Far too near the shale boundary imho.

However I can make a small contribution:-

The situation is very reminiscent of Alderley Edge in the 1970's. An old mine system open to anyone with or without illumination, some entrances blasted over and others buried beneath tons of spoil, all on land owned by the NT.

The DCC (local caving club based in Stockport despite the name) agreed a lease with the NT to re-open some entrances. The general condition was to ensure the safety of the entrances on NT land , manage access to the mines through these, and to carry out remedial work to the surface caused by underground collapse (it was doing this which led to the discovery of the Roman coins and thus  the Roman era shaft and adit.)  I think everyone would agree that the result is a win-win for the general public and the subset of underground enthusiasts. Whilst tons of sand and domestic refuse are much easier to shift than tons of limestone boulders the DCC nevertheless managed some large-scale work like the closing of Engine Vein by concreting.

However the lesson is that a mutually satisfactory relationship between the NT and a local caving club has a good precedent.

 

[pwhole]

Mrs. Trellis - that's exactly the approach I have in mind with Odin - there have been some discussions about taking over responsibility of underground exploration by a 'comptetent organisation', and there are plenty of those in the area for sure. It seems to me that are several solutions on the table, they just need comparing and then one implemented! PDMHS, TSG and Eldon, say, all have the experience and resources to tackle this jointly, if need be, and combined efforts would produce solid results. The surface features alone are lethal if abused, but the general public are allowed to clamber all over them without any liability fears on the part of the NT. You can't lock down a site like this one.

Obviously the main barrier to progress is the shale - however, the earliest workings in Odin are also the highest, so whilst they're less stable (as we've seen), they're also the most important historically, the most accessible and in dire need of serious analysis. In my opinion, what remains of Odin is not collapsing, it's just a little unstable in the backfilled areas, and with work, it can be overcome. I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of the entrance series, as the floor of that is the roof of the cartgate link passage, and if it falls, then there's more blockage, and possibly great danger for those underneath - but we're in places like that all the time. I've been in far worse situations than Odin regularly, they're just not on NT land!

But there are engineering solutions available to all these problems - traverse lines can be installed throughout, for one thing, and they can then be gradually replaced by substitute walkways above the backfill. An excavation at the front, properly managed and stabilised would remove the need for access via the common route, and then some stabilisation/excavation could be done from the other side first. It's obvious that most people have very little knowledge of what exists west of the current workings, but the JH cartgate was also blocked by chokes - if Moose and co hadn't unblocked that cartgate, there would be no Leviathan and no Titan!

I know folks will say it can't be done, but of course it can - many in the know on Odin are civil or mining engineers, and have many contacts in the business. Jim R has stated to me many times of the importance of the inner workings, and we've discussed potential practical solutions regularly. The obstacles here are not technical, but financial and legal and both of those can be sorted out, as other projects have clearly indicated! Odin is possibly the most important mine in the Peak District, and I personally think it's critical that what remains is saved and made available to a wider audience.

 

[droid]

That's a very positive comment, and one that I agree with. I've seen some of the mine conservation that's been done in Derbyshire and what's possible with a small dedicated team.

The possibility of a through trip from Oden to Trickett Lane Sough bolt is a rather attractive one.....

 

[Goydenman]

I think you are right on both accounts - the importance of Odin mine and the capability of the three clubs mentioned.
Go for it!

 

[graham]

I think you are right on both accounts - the importance of Odin mine and the capability of the three clubs mentioned.
Go for it!

Agree on all counts. Those guys can supply the knowledge, the skills, the experience and the manpower necessary. Financing is another issue, but I would expect this to be a long-term and ongoing project, just like at Alderley, as described above by Mrs Trellis. Those guys have done - and are doing - a great job. I see no reason why this project could not be as successful.

 

[Roger W]

A lot of very interesting data there!  But I'm puzzled by a few things.

1:  Chatburn's sketch plan appears to show the cartgate running along the line of the gorge or worked-out vein.  But the survey puts the cartgate at up to 50 feet to the south.  Also Chatburn says Royse's shaft hit the arched roof of the cartgate at a depth of about 30 feet, while the survey shows the cartgate roof to be about 80 feet below the present entrance.  Also Chatburn seems to say that the passage he got into from the shaft was blocked at both ends, and that a side passage was also blocked.  Could this have been the cartgate he got into, or is there another, parallel passage there?

2:  What causes the sinkholes depressions that seem to occur from time to time in front of the gorge?  There's the one in the old photo - the left-hand one of Phil's pair - and there is another one (fenced in by the National Trust) in the lower photo on the Winstercavers website

http://www.winstercavers.org.uk/OdinMine_20081225.aspx

Is there something under there that keeps running in?  It can't be the cartgate if the theory that it only went underground as far as the level of Odin's Cave is correct, and I wouldn't have thought filling in an open cutting would have left such big voids...?

It's a pity Phil's photo in reply no 26 stops where it does: another inch or so in the foreground could tell us a lot.

3:  If the area beneath the entrance level is so unstable, with the handline climb floating upon nothing, so to speak, what should be done to stabilise this part of the mine and prevent that "200 metre deep, evil chasm" opening up?

The whole history of the place - ancient and recent - is so fascinating!  Ahh, if only my memory were better, or -  as Sam suggested - we could travel back in time!