Poll

Have you taken young people on activities such as climbing/caving/diving?

YES and I have been vetted
5 (31.3%)
YES and I have not been vetted
6 (37.5%)
NO and I have been vetted
1 (6.3%)
NO and I have not been vetted
2 (12.5%)
NO because it's too much trouble
2 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closed: April 23, 2005, 10:51:20 am

Author Topic: Young peolple, caving and carers, Insurance  (Read 7718 times)

Offline kay

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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2005, 10:18:30 pm »
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Ah - makes sense.
Cheers!

 Wish it did to me!   :wink: What's an LCM?

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The HSE steps in etc etc, like Browns Folly, closed to anyone classed in thare 'place of work'

Things have to be strict in terms of 'place of work', else under an unscrupulous employer people find themselves doing things they'd rather not do because they might lose their job otherwise. You have a bit freer choice if your  livelihood doesn't hang on it!

I know this doesn't make sense if you are self-employed.

Mine Explorer

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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2005, 08:42:23 am »
Quote from: "c**tplaces"
So the law/rules and regulations (whatever) itself creates a situation were highly skilled, experianced people are prevented from taking groups and its left to the likes of me (some dumb idiot with a lamp)... Fricken scary huh.


Not really.  The scheme is what is used to establish that someone is highly skilled and experienced and knows their way along a safe route in a specific mine.  The scheme also requires a qualified engineer inspects the mine and agrees it is safe for organised trips to use.

Quote from: "c**tplaces"
"cave/mine leadership scheme" is this something I could do?


Yes, it's open to anyone who wants to pay the money to do it.  Whether it's of much use to each individual person if they don't lead organised groups underground is another matter.

I'm not too hot on the finer points, but I think the general principles are that the LCM (Local Cave Mine) Leadership scheme provides a means of training and approving trip 'leaders' to take organised (usually paid) parties (eg. outdoor adventure groups etc)  underground in a safe and controlled manner.

So far as mines are concerned, the groups have to follow an 'approved route'.  The approved route needs to be checked regualarly (I think it's two years) by a suitably qualified mining engineer who will make recommendations (eg. need to garden that bit of roof etc.) before signing it off as ok.

Subsequent trips organised under the provisions of the scheme should be led by an approved leader and can only follow the approved route and may not deviate from it.

Under the scheme the leader will gain approval for each mine (with an approved route!) in their local area (hence the term 'Local' Cave/Mine...) and will have to demonstrate that they know the route etc.

It's a good scheme that gives organised parties a visit underground in a safe and controlled manner.  The approval of the route is based on the professional opinion of a mining engineer, (who will carry professional liability insurance) rather than the opinion of each trip leader - which means there is a known standard for all visits to the same mine.

Now as to whether is worth doing the training, that's up to each individual person.  Although training grants can be obtained through NCA (I think), it will still cost money to go on the training course.  At the end of it you will only be able to take trips to specific mines in your area, and even then only use specific routes.  If you don't have any approved routes in your area then you will need to get the approval organisied.  The engineer who does N. Wales, Mid Wales, North of England and most of the land inbetween lives in N. Yorkshire - he may even do more of the country.  Usually a number of outdoor centres will club together to pay to get an approved route in a mine.

As examples, in the Nenthead region "Tyne Bottom" is approved, and there's an approved route in "Smallcleugh".   The Smallcleugh route follows the 'Hard Crosscut', right through the flats until you reach the 'Flat Crosscut', through 'Wheel Flats' through 'Hetheringtons' to the 'Ballroom Flat', then return the same way.

As for Mr. Darkplaces, I'd say that it might not be that useful.  No doubt the course would give very valuable general information on leading trips underground, but you'd still be prevented from taking (paid) trips into Box, until Box gets approval.

Personally, if I was on my own I'd only really want to take two or three other unexperienced people on a trip.   To take a group of six U/G I'd personally like at least one other experienced person to act as 'tail end charlie' and make sure no-one gets lost enroute.  (There's a tragic reason why the first sump on the right in Smallcleugh has a waist height rail across the entrance :(  ).


More details can be found HERE including downloads etc.

One place to gain approval is through our very own Mr. Sparrow by clicking HERE for more information.


No doubt Andy will be able to clarify all the points I've got wrong above  :oops:

Offline Andy Sparrow

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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2005, 10:05:03 am »
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Yes, it's open to anyone who wants to pay the money to do it. Whether it's of much use to each individual person if they don't lead organised groups underground is another matter.


The scheme offers training and assessment for either mine or cave leadership and courses specific to each are run.   Caving lacks formal training and has relied historically on a trickle-down of knowledge through the club 'system'.  This unfortunatley often proves to be equally efffective is disseminating misinformation.  The Local Cave/Mine Leader training courses offer the best and proven training courses available in the UK.  Leadership is not a skill required only by professional instructors - it is a crucial factor in most caving trips, even in the informal club environment where there may not be an appointed leader.

But the leadership element aside, the training courses cover many basic and essential subjects which benefit every caver:  cave formation, personal equipment, ropework, navigation, hazards, self-rescue and more.  I suggested some years ago to the NCA training committee that we should change the name of the course and remove the word 'leader' in order to encourage more participation.  

Anyway, my advice to any caver who wants to improve their skills is to do the cave leader training course.  Even those who think they know it all might be surprised.  Of course I may be accused of  'feathering my own nest' as it were but it is my sincere belief that these courses benefit caving and cavers
Andy Sparrow



darkplaces

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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2005, 02:41:02 pm »
Hmm, I'm kinda interested. 3 days total and the costs seam ok.
Having something is better then nothing even if I am not doing 'offical' routes it would help. Having had no formal underground training it would be nice.

Andy, I may be in contact soon..

Offline Rachel

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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2005, 10:03:26 pm »
Darkplaces, have a look at the Learning and Skills Council website - can't remember the address. They gave me 50% of the cost of my LCL course and assessments earlier this year.

Mole

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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2005, 06:47:01 am »
Any approved route in Box would have to stop at the first fall,and therefore qualify as one of the shortest routes ever.

Mine Explorer

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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2005, 07:54:35 am »
Quote from: "Mole"
Any approved route in Box would have to stop at the first fall,and therefore qualify as one of the shortest routes ever.


I don't see why, if you follow the Hard Crosscut in Smallcleugh (ie. the approved route) you're climbing over numerous falls as the level passes through layers of shale.

As it's used by outdoor centres now you'll also find Rhiwbach will have an approved route - I don't know the precise details of it, but I can be pretty certain it will be going over/under falls.

Approved routes do go through 'dangerous' areas, pass open winzes/sumps, go over collapsed areas of roof etc. etc.  but the risks have all been assessed and managed.  Depending on the level of the leader's training, the LCMLA scheme also has provision for vertical electron ladder work as well.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2005, 10:34:05 am »
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it is my sincere belief that these courses benefit caving and cavers


Less of a "belief" and more of a fact, in my opinion.

Offline Rhys

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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2005, 11:32:44 am »
Quote from: "cap 'n chris"
Quote
it is my sincere belief that these courses benefit caving and cavers


Less of a "belief" and more of a fact, in my opinion.

So is it a fact or an opinion?

I'm confused ;-)

Rhys

Offline mudmonkey

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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 01:10:31 pm »
Training is highly beneficial for all the reasons Andy states - disemmination of best practice etc. is invaluable.

We do however need to be careful that qualifications don't become seen as a "magic bullet". Remember that the only ticket that "qualifies" you to teach SRT is the CIC - not something that many people can afford to undertake. Problems arise when men-in-suits-who-don't-understand demand that everyone doing any training is "appropriately qualified" in some way.

I'm sure that this is NOT what Andy - or anyone else involved in the "professional" part of caver training - wants, I'm not accusing anyone here. I guess I speak for most (?) when I say that I value the informal training within caving, with occasional "qualified" input - for example at the regional fairs, conference, etc. - long may it survive.

Darkplaces - I'm sure you'll learn a lot on a course with Andy, L1 is certainly a good grounding in basic cave leadership if you've never done any.

Offline Stuart Anderson

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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 01:24:43 pm »
Quote from: "mudmonkey"
I guess I speak for most (?) when I say that I value the informal training within caving, with occasional "qualified" input - for example at the regional fairs, conference, etc. - long may it survive.


Any course I've ever attented or been fortunate enough to train candidates on, has always followed this informal framework. These courses are very much a means of sharing ideas - or as a trainer I was lucky enough to meet put it - a diagnostic of your personal/leader skills etc. They're not intintented to teach you anything per se, but I wager there hasn't been a candidate on a course who hasn't come away learning something (even staff!) - often they're the ones who thought they coudn't be taught anything and they are usually big enough to acknowledge the fact. The value is in the candidate wanting to find something out.

I echo you're sentiment and don't actually feel it will change.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Cap'n Chris

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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2005, 06:15:15 pm »
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So is it a fact or an opinion?

I'm confused  


Now you come to mention it, so am I; however, it would appear that I was confused as well as being confusing even before confusing you and then retrospectively finding myself similarly confused. So, for the record, it's my opinion that a fact is a fact even though it's an opinion. However, if it's an opinion that a fact remains factual despite it being hedged by the term "opinion" then it remains an opinion even though it may also be a fact. However, I suspect some pedant (nit-picker, not child-molester!) will state the definition of a fact and prove that all this opinionated stuff is irrelevant.

Dave H

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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 10:11:25 pm »
And for an encore - you'll prove that black is also white and get run over on the next Zebra Crossing :lol:

Roger Cook

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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2005, 05:24:19 pm »
Now Hole_in_the_rock has made his interests known to us all in another thread, his motives for asking this question become clear. I know who I wouldn't trust my children's care to.