Author Topic: Cave Taping and Conservation.  (Read 18251 times)

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Cave Taping and Conservation.
« on: August 12, 2014, 06:27:21 pm »
Time for a new thread on this I think . Give me time and I will add some more photos. Personally I think taping is essential. We like to think we are ahead of the field at Reservoir with the technique we use ( unproven ? ). The Frozen Deep would have been ruined without our taped paths which means some %95 has never been touched. This photo I took today. It shows the stainless steel risers and white electric farm tape that we now use. With any tape it is important that its not touched by hand. This tricky bit of path shows the tape kept well away from where hands or boots would be. The handline on the wall stops accidental slip ups off the route.



Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 06:35:24 pm »
Ineffective old linen tape in Shatter Cave. This has now degraded an in places where in contact with stal has become stalagmited and brittle.





Basically its no good putting tape where it will become muddy and indistinguishable from the area its meant to protect.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 06:40:59 pm »
Stalagmited tape now in fragments as it has become brittle. The model is on the path route where the tape should have been. The danger of putting tape on stal in an active cave . Withyhill tapes were also stalagmited and brittle over 20 years.


Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 06:45:05 pm »
Photography. Foreground taping cloned out for artistic effect.





I could also have cloned out the background tape.


Offline Judi Durber

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 06:49:31 pm »
Quote
Ineffective old linen tape in Shatter Cave. This has now degraded an in places where in contact with stal has become stalagmited and brittle.



We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life waiting for us.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 06:56:30 pm »
More recent taping in Shatter Cave though you will note that the nice white stalagmite is not protected.



Not particularly effective old taping in Shatter Cave.



Offline mmilner

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 06:59:02 pm »
1. tape should never be attached to that which it is supposed to be protecting.

2. how are you supposed to install tape without touching it?

3. this subject will be discussed at the upcoming BCA C&A meeting.
Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 07:03:08 pm »
Orange tape in shatter Cave. Actually it does little to protect the pillar from hand marks.



Good unobtrusive taping in Shatter Cave.




Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 07:11:26 pm »
A mixture of taping in Upper Flood Swallet. Effective in the short term. I am not a fan of notices. We had them in Reservoir but removed them later. A couple remain but are they necessary where there is a leader system ? Personally I think caves such as this should charge a conservation fee. There is an honesty box at the MCG hut it may be disregarded by some and does not imply its for the caves protection. Our mile of tape in Reservoir was funded by the £2 trip fee. Perhaps there is some legal implication here. I really do not know.


Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 07:21:03 pm »
Ebay £11.50.

Single Roll of 20mm  WHITE

 Electric Fencing Tape

 1 x 200 meters

This tape has 6 stainless steel conductors woven in the tape.

As I said it is unproven in caves but survives well for many years in the open air slightly losing its whiteness to grey. It is incredibly strong. Luckily it has proved to be very bat friendly having just the right texture for them to grip. We usually had about six on the tapes over winter.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2014, 07:22:14 pm »
That will do from me for now. Hopefully some help in future discussions on this issue.

Offline mmilner

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2014, 07:37:00 pm »
You are to be congratulated for your efforts, however, this is what you should be aiming for:-



This passage is taped. (I know where the tape is.) No cloning of pics necessary with this method. Orange synthetic rope is being used, you could also use white if preferred, but that would show up in pics.
Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2014, 07:55:56 pm »
Lovely MM. Not the UK ? Looks very very fragile to me.

Offline bograt

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2014, 08:15:34 pm »
Yes, nice pic Mel, err--- why does it look as though the cameraman is the wrong side of the line???
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Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2014, 08:48:41 pm »
We have a section of new passage in Rowter Hole that I was lucky enough to discover which is similar to the first photograph posted on this thread. The rope in our case does need to be permanently attached to thus guiding cavers along a set path and therefore, in my mind, negating the need for any tape, which would simply ruin the spectacle.

It is envisaged that only experienced cavers are likely to visit this part of the cave as the SRT techniques to gain access are quite technical. As such, it would be hoped they'd be experienced enough to think carefully about the conservation issues and how best to travel through the cave.

Unfortunately even experienced cavers are not always so well educated in cave conservation and some are simply vandals. It doesn't really matter what conservation measures you employ, the vandals will still do their business, well, apart from a locked gate of course. Unless what the gate was protecting was pretty special and I could get access to it at any reasonable time and without having to be shepherded through the cave with a leader, that wouldn't be acceptable to me.

We hear of the vandalised caves often when discussing access and conservation issues but the examples given are extreme cases. A notable one in Derbyshire was Gimli's Dream in Merlin's Mine, near Stoney Middleton. Unfortunately I was never lucky enough to have seen it in all its glory. I've seen most of the rest of Derbyshire though and its all pretty good really, well except for all the ugly, rusty, unlocked gates in Peak/Speedwell.

There are muddy boot and handprints marking the route through the very pretty high level passages in Rowter but I would much rather see that than tape in any of the new bits.   

Just before you get to the Canals in the Berger there is an A4 laminated warning sign hanging on a bolt. Everybody reads it, if only to try and ridicule it, but it does have very important information on it that most cavers take on board.

Perhaps we could try something similar for conservation measures. Maybe its already been tried but if we took some good photographs of any new discoveries, laminated them with the important conservation information clearly marked on them and placed in strategic places it would do as good, if not a better job than tape. 

The conservationists need to give some serious thought to educating others. With the majority of our new cavers coming from university clubs, perhaps the powers that be should engage with CHECC and formulate a plan.

I've just noticed another 12 posts on this thread since I started mine, so apologies if it doesn't fit in. I haven't got time to read any, I'm off to the pub.

Mark Wright




Offline graham

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2014, 09:27:57 pm »
There are muddy boot and handprints marking the route through the very pretty high level passages in Rowter but I would much rather see that than tape in any of the new bits.

Really?   

The conservationists need to give some serious thought to educating others. With the majority of our new cavers coming from university clubs, perhaps the powers that be should engage with CHECC and formulate a plan.

I have given it serious thought and I have concluded that in far too many cases the education cannot be carried out in time. Sad, but true.
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Offline mmilner

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2014, 10:35:10 pm »
Lovely MM. Not the UK ? Looks very very fragile to me.

Hi Nick. Belgium. SC Avalon have got it sussed. The caver is within the tapes, trust me!  :thumbsup:
Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline mmilner

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2014, 10:38:26 pm »
Personally I think caves such as this should charge a conservation fee.

There is certainly a case for that, though in the Peak BCA funds taping and other works via DCA.
Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline mmilner

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 10:45:17 pm »
Yes, nice pic Mel, err--- why does it look as though the cameraman is the wrong side of the line???

Lol, I can assure you the cameraman is on the right side of the tape! It comes down from the upper left, (look near the cavers right foot, you can 'just' make out the tape), then goes around the lovely column in the middle of the pic towards where the cameraman is taking the shot from.

Just goes to show, you can tape caves and have the tape virtually invisible! Put it at knee height if possible, use rope cos that's much tougher than tape, then job done...
Norbert Casteret (Ten Years Under the Earth) and Pierre Chevalier (Subterranean Climbers) were my inspiration to start caving. (And I'm still doing it.) Secretary, Darfar Potholing Club, the Peak District.

Offline ianball11

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2014, 10:46:34 pm »
I really appreciate taping, it goes a long way to stopping me being the cause of terrible damage, and personally tape in a photo doesn't bother me.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2014, 06:36:35 am »
I really appreciate taping, it goes a long way to stopping me being the cause of terrible damage, and personally tape in a photo doesn't bother me.

Thanks! - having been involved in a fair amount of taping (20 hours just to retape Withyhill earlier this year) it's nice to know when it IS appreciated! Although clearly it's actually done for the benefit of the cave, rather than the benefit of the visitors.

Offline graham

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2014, 06:41:29 am »
I really appreciate taping, it goes a long way to stopping me being the cause of terrible damage, and personally tape in a photo doesn't bother me.

Thanks! - having been involved in a fair amount of taping (20 hours just to retape Withyhill earlier this year) it's nice to know when it IS appreciated! Although clearly it's actually done for the benefit of the cave, rather than the benefit of the visitors.

but caves are not voting members of BCA, so they should get no benefit from the organisation.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2014, 06:48:16 am »
LOL. You're right of course. I'll draw up an invoice.

Offline Leclused

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2014, 09:11:37 am »
Lovely MM. Not the UK ? Looks very very fragile to me.

Hi Nick. Belgium. SC Avalon have got it sussed. The caver is within the tapes, trust me!  :thumbsup:

Indeed "mmilner" is right. As a member of Sc Avalon I know this place very well. This is the cave "Grotte du Bois de Waerimont" Eprave - Belgium. The part that is discovered by our club is protected by 2 steel doors.

Picture of the 1st entry door : http://scavalon.blogspot.be/search/label/Bois%20de%20Waerimont

We guide 6 times per year groups of maximum 6 cavers in the cave. The trip (4-6 hours) is almost completely taped to protect stals/ walls / floors/ bones / ...
There is even a zone were you need do undress and go through in your fleece undersuit. All dirty stuff is transported in bags including the helmets. So everybody needs an extra light. (see slide 13 in the presentation)

P De Bie made this presentation about conservation. It has been mentioned already several times here on the forum. Anayway here is the link to the presentation :

http://www.scavalon.be/downloads/Cave%20Protection%20English.pdf

Slide 18 and 19 are the same spot as in the picture shown previosely. The picture will tell the story :-)
Slide 24 gives an example of pictograms to protect go / no-go zones in the cave.

Currenlty we use fencing wires with the woven alu wires in it. These are proven to work even better then the fine nylon ropes we used before, The nylon ropes were sometimes eaten by animals. The fencing tape is not  ;D And we also switched the small plastic pins instead of alu pins for security reasons. A  plastic pin will bent when somebody falls on it an alu pin not and can cause injuries to the caver

@Old Ruminator : Go for the fencing wire it is proven that it work very well.

In the following photo album you can find some photos of how the taping can be installed.
https://plus.google.com/photos/+PaulDeBie/albums/5979106419169816081?banner=pwa

The taping in this cave was placed 2 days after this part was discovered. Taping should be done asap after the discovery. In this case 2 members did the discovery on a Friday and on Sunday we went back with 6 persons  to do the taping / survey and further exploration.

A small clip of a clean-up action in an other Belgian cave. This action involved members of several clubs joining to clean-up the cave

https://sites.google.com/site/speleovig/Environnement/operation-mr-propre-a-ste-anne

Recently there was a new discovery of a very very beautifull cave in Belgium. The explorers protected the cave in the same way and more. They even documented the cave in such a way that a virtual trip can be made in the cave.

https://sites.google.com/site/grottenoubleu/ (the virtual tour is a must see)

Hopefully this post will encourage other cavers to go an protect the beautiful underground.

BR

Dagobert L'Ecluse (Sc Avalon  - Belgium)
www.scavalon.be
scavalon.blogspot.be
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 09:34:38 am by Leclused »
Dagobert L'Ecluse (SC Avalon - Belgium)
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http://scavalon.blogspot.be

Offline graham

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Re: Cave Taping and Conservation.
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2014, 09:19:00 am »
Two steel doors and a Guide!  Our yorkie brethren will have a duck fit.
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