can anybody give any pointers finding ogof gofan near bosherston - a friend spent all afternoon looking to no avail

basicaly where on the cliff is it!!!

cheers traff

Wish I could help but we went there few years back, just strolled along the edges (had no gear), got to the point of where we thought it should be but wasn't sure where you would descend.. Further round the coast we looked back and saw some holes that may have been the cave (then again they might not have been!).
Does anyone know - If you walk further round the coast can you see the cave entrance??

Can't remember actual location, but wasn't that far from the car I don't think. There was a blowhole type shaft at the top of the cliff not far (less than 100m) from the belay which might help. I went this the Hereford Caving Club so didn't bother noting actual location. Impressive abseil down cliff into cave entrance.

Robin

There is a good description with NGR and survey in Caves of West Wales by Tony Oldham

Is this the exit for the route - "preposterous tales". Given E2

Here is the guidebook description

The following route is a wild trip into the bowels of the earth. It starts from ledges above high tide on the south west arete of Bosherston Head. The pitches inside the cave are always damp but the holds are good. A head torch might be useful to find protection! First find the blow hole on the surface (see map on page §§§). Abseil down either side of the arete which is about 15m to the right (looking out) of the line of the blow hole cave.
1) 4c, 15m. Traverse rightwards into the sea cave, aiming for the apex of the cave. Swing into the cave and find an excellent belay, 4m inside, on a boulder choke.
2) 5a, 10m. Bridge inwards to where the cave widens. Committing, but surprisingly easy moves across the left wall lead to a corner beneath daylight. Belay here.
3) 4c, 25m. Follow the corner to escape.

Looking at the rock fax turn left just after huntmans leap - in its just back from the cliff edge - about 15 meters.

Sounds wicked and one thats always been on my tick list.

Hmm - anyone fancy a trip to pembroke
:twisted:

i'm back in pembrokeshire at the end of the month

having already spent two afternoons swinging about on cliff faces without finding it, i've done some more research and more determined than ever to find it before ian hale
i've seen 3 grid refs in different books all the same which place it on saddle head not bosherton head
i made contact with a WSG member who has been there - he said belay from some metal spikes that the climbers use next to the radar station
the radar station is on saddle head - assuming the WSG member is right the grid ref is wrong by 200m ish
some climbing guides also refer to a cave in the cliff near the radar station

i'll keep you posted

Hi

Ogof Govan is very difficult to find since it isn't visible from the top. I did it once, about 30 years ago, and it wasn't on St Govan's Head, but it's not far away. It also used some stakes to access it. Sorry I can't be more help, memory's not what it used to be, etc.

Gus

Anyone looking to find it should go to saddle head, its on the west side so stand by the radar station and walk north along the west side of the headland past the top of blue sky. When you come to a part of the cliff where you can scramble halfway down the cliff do so. Here there is a (very) small bay surrounded by cliffs around half the height of the main cliff. Search around the NE corner of the bay to find a small rusty stake which you belay your ladder to. You then climb down into a large opening, the entrance is a roomy squeeze at the rear of a chamber with another rusty stake, this one with a rusty maillon attached.
Hope this makes it clear

    "roomy squeeze "     

There will be a detailed description of how to find the cave in the next edition of the Chelsea newsletter, September / October edition 2011.
After some research and a chat with Brendan Marris I went on holiday to Pembrokeshire and whilst there took photos and notes for the 'Idiots Guide' article that shows exactly how to locate the anchor points for the cave, starting out from from the St Govens Head car park.

Didn't have any SRT gear with me though so my own 1st trip will have to wait for the time being.

The main reason the precise location of this cave has not previously been described in intricate detail is glaringly obvious to anyone who has visited it. As has already been noted in this thread, it is in a popular climbing area and the relative difficulty of access would certainly not deter climbers, some of whom may not be as conservation conscious as cavers. If you visited Pembrokeshire on a more regular basis you would also be painfully aware of just how intrepid fishermen can be on occasion as well.

Be careful - your "Idiots Guide" could turn out to be well named, though perhaps not in the way you intended!

Hello Nig
I've heard plenty about you from Stuart France (who I do most of my caving with) all good stuff mind! Will probably end up meeting you before long.
I understand what you're getting at but surely there's not too many non cavers or fishermmen who are regular readers of the Chelsea Newsletter? I don't really know what the readership size is though.
Access in itself would deter most people as you say. I have not produced the article to get into access arguments and debates but as an aid to the caving community / chelsea members who might like to see a very well decorated cave in a highly unusual location.

Matt

Muddy Funkster said:

I understand what you're getting at but surely there's not too many non cavers or fishermen who are regular readers of the Chelsea Newsletter? I don't really know what the readership size is though.

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The CSS Newsletter is now available on-line and hence the potential readership may be somewhat greater than you suggest. Any information you put in your article will be accessible to anyone who is capable of conducting a simple Google search.

Muddy Funkster said:

I have not produced the article to get into access arguments and debates but as an aid to the caving community / Chelsea members who might like to see a very well decorated cave in a highly unusual location.

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Yes, it's in a 'highly unusual location' - it's in the middle of a military firing range! Have you contacted the MOD for their opinion about unnecessarily publicising a 'very well decorated cave' on their property? If not, then I suggest you do so (or send me a PM and I'll let you have the direct phone number for the RSM so you can ask him yourself). In fact, have you looked into the attitude of the MOD towards caving in Pembrokeshire at all? If not, then try contacting Cambrian Caving Council's Conservation and Access Officer directly and I'm sure she will be able to enlighten you.

Matt, I'm sure you have set out to do this with the best of intentions but in my opinion these are misguided to say the least. By your own admission you haven't even visited the cave but you want to publish an article which can only have an adverse effect on its conservation. I find this very odd and somewhat worrying. Are cavers in general (and CSS members in particular) so lacking in initiative these days that they need an 'Idiots Guide' to find every single entrance? FFS, what does it matter if you abseil down at the wrong point? Just come back up and try again, there are only so many places it can be after all. (Don't forget your SRT kit, though!).

Muddy Funkster said:

Will probably end up meeting you before long.

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Not if you persist with this kind of nonsense you won't!

Fulk said:

....some of whom may not be as conservation conscious as cavers.

If only! Have you been to Easter Grotto recently?

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Sorry, I live and cave in Wales and I was referring to cavers here.

Easter Grotto's in Yorkshire isn't it?

And to answer your question.......

No, I haven't been there recently. Last time was probably around 1978 or '79 - and it was trashed then! Perhaps if it had not been so well publicised it might have lasted a little bit longer.

Nig, thanks for the some of the good points you raise. Something for me to discuss with others (more experienced than myself) at CSS and then make a decision on. I can't say I agree with everything you say (but take issue more with the way you put your arguments).
I had already phoned the MOD number on the Castlemartin Range website to discuss access to the cliff tops but did not contact Cambrian, in the follow up to this discussion I will make sure I do though.
I am relatively new to the caving community, having been a member at CSS for a year and a half. I am aware of some of the ethical issues and political aspects that come into play when caving, discussing access and conservation etc.. Not all the angles mind you and I'm going to have to learn about it all bit by bit as I go along.
The article seemed like a good idea as I had already read in this forum thread and several others online regarding Ogof Gofan. There seem to be many people who do want to know where the entrance is and have wasted time and petrol travelling the long distances to Pembrokeshire and have come away empty handed, several times in some cases. I'm guessing your own response to this would be "If you can't find it then you probably don't deserve to see it then", that's not very inclusive though, if people are going to cave then it should be for the whole of the caving community surely? Not just the select few who feel that because of years of hard earned experience, only they have a right to see the hard to find or remote wonders of the underground world!
I would also like to become an active member of CSS and by that I mean caving and getting to know members, but also submitting more to the newsletter, something which the club would like more of its members to do. This article was just that, enthusiasm and passion for something we all love.
Although I am a relative novice at caving, when I do cave, I do so with a lot of care and respect for its delicate environment. Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you have the desire to crawl down into a muddy hole in the ground you do so to see the natural beauty that awaits within, and with that appreciation, a sense of respect and duty of care go hand in hand?
Anyway I take your points / advice on board and will discuss it all before deciding if we should publish the article.
One bit of advice from me to you (although I suspect you may not be willing to hear it), is to be a little bit more reasonable in the way you communicate with others. I travel through life trying to do just this with the people I meet (even the ones I disagree with) and find it has served me well. Things still get done and decisions made but things just go a little more smoothly. Just a thought!
Matt

Although I am a relative novice at caving, when I do cave, I do so with a lot of care and respect for its delicate environment. Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you have the desire to crawl down into a muddy hole in the ground you do so to see the natural beauty that awaits within, and with that appreciation, a sense of respect and duty of care go hand in hand?

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Been lurking reading this thread and I'm not getting involved in access/info debates. But the above point stood out, particularly the bit about respect and duty of care - whilst a lot of cavers do take care others just barge through, don't look what they're doing and end up destroying what they have gone to see.. If you have seen once decorated places trashed then perhaps you can see why advertising the exact location of a decorated cave is met with some hostility.

As I said, I think Nig makes some genuinely good points to consider but the way he makes them is unneccesary and 'hostile' as you put it. Having read some more now on other threads, I can see quite clearly that that is just his 'style of communicating'. Surely people can debate and disagree without the need for such BS and agro?
Matt

Muddy Funkster said:

I had already phoned the MOD number on the Castlemartin Range website to discuss access to the cliff tops.............

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Who did you speak to? Did you specifically say that you were planning to publish a detailed article revealing the precise location of an extremely well decorated and hitherto little known cave on their property, the end result of which will be to increase the traffic to that cave and lead to its gradual degradation? If so, I would be most surprised if your intentions met with their approval. The MOD are very concerned with all aspects of conservation at Castlemartin and have an impressive record on this score.

Muddy Funkster said:

Although I am a relative novice at caving, when I do cave, I do so with a lot of care and respect for its delicate environment. Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you have the desire to crawl down into a muddy hole in the ground you do so to see the natural beauty that awaits within, and with that appreciation, a sense of respect and duty of care go hand in hand?

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I'm sure you are an absolute angel. Unfortunately, not everyone, particularly non-cavers, can be said to be the same.

Muddy Funkster said:

I would also like to become an active member of CSS and by that I mean caving and getting to know members, but also submitting more to the newsletter, something which the club would like more of its members to do.

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So the real reason for writing this article is to raise your own profile and enhance your own position within your own club? Fine, nothing wrong with that if you are so inclined, it's what lots of other people do after all. So why not go and do some proper caving and find something worthwhile to write about rather than waste your time producing something that can only have a negative effect on the underground environment you claim to care so much about? Initially, I did find it odd that you should want to write about a cave you haven't yet visited but I can now see a strange sense of purpose to this. Once you do finally get there you can write a follow-up article extolling the virtues of this wonderful cave in the next issue of your newsletter. There you go, double exposure, not just for the cave but for yourself as well!

dunc said:

If you have seen once decorated places trashed then perhaps you can see why advertising the exact location of a decorated cave is met with some hostility.

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Well said, Dunc. Tell you what, why don't you offer to take this guy for a trip into Easter Grotto some time?


One final point I would like to make is that I am astounded that a well respected club with such a fine conservation record as CSS should even consider publishing an article like this in their newsletter. Most disappointing.

Increased foot fall? Is there no permit system in place then?

Anyone without a permit will be used as target practice lol.

I would think that anyone who has a permit should be given the right information to find the cave otherwise they waste the day and the permit not finding it?

Maybe his guide should just be for his club members only and the full information is only released with the permit?

P.s. Can we have ONE thread that does not degenerate into access debates!??? :-\

Well it certainly raised my eyebrows to see this thread I started five years ago revived.

It is of my opinion that there is a very much unwritten rule on the location of Ogof Gofan, you don't publish it.
Not one single guide book gives you correct location. After my original posts in this thread I found Ogof Gofan and have visited several times.
I agree with NigR on this one:

NigR said:

The main reason the precise location of this cave has not previously been described in intricate detail is glaringly obvious to anyone who has visited it.

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Which is exactly why I never came back to this thread to report.......