Author Topic: BREAKING: Twll Du entrance to Ogof Draenen blocked with reinforced concrete  (Read 7055 times)

Offline droid

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He's only been accused of being 'offensive' by one person.

Hardly a 'gang'.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Kenilworth

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Maybe it's possible to get whatever results you want out of a bat survey?
This is the PDCMG's bat expert - the people who would really, really like a single entrance to the system. Why on earth would they report something likely (if protocol is followed) to keep entrances open, if it wasn't actually true.

Open to bats isn't always open to cavers. As you know.

It is in fact possible (and common here) to use bat surveys as a political or practical weapon. Last year I was asked by a land preservationist group to act as a consultant for a bat survey. They wanted to buy a cave and "needed" to find protected species therein so they could get free government grant money to apply to the purchase. I met with the group to show them the cave and to give advice on where bats might be. Also present was a hired US Fish and Wildlife Service bat "expert". None in the group were willing to enter the cave, so I explained that it was extremely unlikely that the cave was a hibernaculum or maternity roost since all of the passage is low streamway, making bats easy picking for raccoons and opossum. Despite their watching the entrances for several evenings and using various sound and motion loggers, the only bat detected near the cave was one that I pointed out cruising up and down the road on that first night. On the basis of the sound if that single bat's wingbeats, the USFWS report dercribed the cave as a hibernaculum for a rare endangered species, and was the centerpiece of the grant application.

Avoiding bias requires exceptional circumspection and near omniscience, is practically impossible, even for Mr. Rose, and should not be expected from anyone. It is our own responsibility to arrive at the truth as best as possible by evaluating all sources and whatever information is available. For example, besides his politics, Mr. Rose is seen in his report (note the comical final sentence) and in his being "offended" to be somewhat of a dramatist. A reader who pays attention will find questional rhetoric in nearly all reporting. Count on it, and use your own mind to balance the weight of this bullshit against that.

Offline moletta

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I know nothing about what has happened, or been written apart from reading this thread, and don't wish to comment on that.

However, can someone just make this clear please.

Has the entrance been blocked with no provision for bats to exit/ enter?

Offline Badlad

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According to the Cambrian newsletter and comments made at Saturday's BCA meeting by the Cambrian rep the cave has been blocked with re-enforced concrete and no provision for bats made.  Reading the reports it appears that CADW claim that no bats were using the entrance whilst another report made by the Cambrian officer and a bat specialist suggests that bats were using it.  I doubt it will be long before someone goes in to see if there are any dead bats in the cave.  It is highly unlikely that the police will take action on a government body who have all the powers to defend themselves even if a wildlife crime has been committed.  What is probably more likely is that this will not be the end of the Draenen dispute and whilst the different sides feel aggrieved we can only expect matters to continue at best or escalate further as has been the trend over the last decade or more.

One day, in 20 or 30 years time someone will write a caving book with a chapter on Draenen.  Readers will wonder incredulously about how it all went so wrong, how the people involved let it go as far as it did and that the wider community just looked on.  I wonder at what stage it will be when the caving community just says enough is enough and force both sides to a compromise solution.

Offline SteveA

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What's done is done. There's no point in anyone antagonising the situation. It's about time people started growing up & trying to work towards feasible solutions rather than creating or magnifying problems with the caving fraternity & outside bodies. Without meaningful conversation this is what happens so it's about time everyone started being positive & promoting good relationship's or we could lose even more access

Offline Pegasus

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At times this place is like the Daily Mail for hysteria and bias  ::)

I hear there is a possibility of peace breaking out in the near future. The best chance of that happening is to tone down the rhetoric and outrage.

Hello Rich, I read with hope of the possibility of peace breaking out re Draenan, I'm sure I'm not the only caver who would like to see an end to this sorry episode in British caving - here's wishing the 'peace negotiators' every success.

I agree with your remarks about toning down rhetoric and outrage - however talk of hysteria and bias is rather continuing the cycle  ;)

UKC is a place where issues can be highlighted/debated and where cavers can read about what others think on various issues (hello lurkers).  UKC welcomes all opinions.  Remember however, UKC is not just about CROW and Draenan - there's lots more going on, 2 people got work through the vacancy board recently, the Summer Expedition reports made great reading, caving will be featured at Kendal Festival in November due to UKC, there's kit for sale, newtocaving.com was designed to inspire new cavers to our sport and so on  :)

Rich is right, let's tone down 'rhetoric and outrage' - blimey, fancy UKC being likened to the Daily Mail  :o  ;D


Offline Roger W

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... blimey, fancy UKC being likened to the Daily Mail  :o  ;D

Now there's rhetoric and outrage for you!
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline David Rose

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The Daily Mail is now being edited by Geordie Greig, the former editor of the Mail on Sunday. He is a very different sort of person from his predecessor Paul Dacre, and it is already apparent that the rhetoric and bias which used to characterise much of the Daily Mail has been toned down a great deal. I suggest you all try reading it.

Offline NewStuff

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for being "offensive" by the Multiple Entrances At Any Cost Gang.
"Gang"

That word doesn't mean what you think it does. You need more than one person for a gang. I wouldn't call Huge's posts Offensive. Whingy, full of the bias he states he doesn't like, and bordering on laughable, certainly, but not offensive.

At Any Cost? No, To my knowledge, no-one has ever said that that on here, so how about *you* stop introducing bias?

we could lose even more access

Stop scaremongering. Our community does far too much "but what if..." handwringing. Being paralysed by the fear of remote possibilities is pointless.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline droid

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The Daily Mail is now being edited by Geordie Greig, the former editor of the Mail on Sunday. He is a very different sort of person from his predecessor Paul Dacre, and it is already apparent that the rhetoric and bias which used to characterise much of the Daily Mail has been toned down a great deal. I suggest you all try reading it.

Just checked the Daily Mail website.

If that's an example of the journalism in the actual paper, I'd get more entertainment reading the ingredients on a tub of margarine tan that bilge.
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Offline andys

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........... I'd get more entertainment reading the ingredients on a tub of margarine tan that bilge .............

Water, vegetable oils in varying proportions (22%) (rapeseed, palm, sunflower) olive oil (16%) modified corn starch, salt, BUTTERMILK, emulsifiers (mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids, sunflower lecithin), preservative (potassium sorbate), citric acid, natural flavouring, vitamins A and D, colour (carotenes).

Now THAT'S what I call entertainment  :smartass:
Plateaus are the highest form of flattery.

Offline Alex

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Quote
The Daily Mail is now being edited by Geordie Greig, the former editor of the Mail on Sunday. He is a very different sort of person from his predecessor Paul Dacre, and it is already apparent that the rhetoric and bias which used to characterise much of the Daily Mail has been toned down a great deal. I suggest you all try reading it.

Come off it, the daily mail won't change it's spots any more than a lepord does because that's how they sell papers. They will have to do a lot of work to shake off that well deserved reputation, much more than just changing the editor.

Quote
What's done is done

As for the entrance is it not possible to drill a 2 inch hole through the concrete to make an entrance for the bats before they die, or is it too late? I am saddened by this has gotten so far as endanger and kill protected wildlife! So lets forget prosecuting for now and take immediate remedial action.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 11:54:49 am by Alex »
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Huge

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Pretty sure it's been said on here that bats need a horizontal opening to fly into and that a small, vertical opening is no good to them.

It seems CADW wouldn't trust cavers not to vandalise a bat friendly gate or grill. Why the entrance couldn't have been built up slightly and a bat sized channel, at first horizontal then switching to vertical, left through the concrete, I don't know. It could have been made out of rectangular section plastic (lasts forever, apparently) channel and the concrete poured around it. Too late now, of course.

Offline BradW

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Pretty sure it's been said on here that bats need a horizontal opening to fly into and that a small, vertical opening is no good to them.

It seems CADW wouldn't trust cavers not to vandalise a bat friendly gate or grill. Why the entrance couldn't have been built up slightly and a bat sized channel, at first horizontal then switching to vertical, left through the concrete, I don't know. It could have been made out of rectangular section plastic (lasts forever, apparently) channel and the concrete poured around it. Too late now, of course.
I believe the repair of the monument will have required it to have been restored as close as possible to its original condition. No hole, no gate, just a bank as it used to be.

Offline 2xw

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Pretty sure it's been said on here that bats need a horizontal opening to fly into and that a small, vertical opening is no good to them.

It seems CADW wouldn't trust cavers not to vandalise a bat friendly gate or grill. Why the entrance couldn't have been built up slightly and a bat sized channel, at first horizontal then switching to vertical, left through the concrete, I don't know. It could have been made out of rectangular section plastic (lasts forever, apparently) channel and the concrete poured around it. Too late now, of course.

I wouldn't worry too much there'll be another entrance for the bats within a few months time no doubt

Offline Frog2

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And on it goes.........................

Offline NewStuff

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It does...

If I were a local, I'd be paying very close attention to where that scheduled land ends, looking a bit outside that, prefereably on access land, and poking at some bits that look promising. On overlay of the cave map in that vicinity and the SAM boundaries on a sat image would be a very good thing to have...
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Topimo

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It's a shame the surveys are so hard to get hold of...oh wait. :smartass:

Offline Rhys

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It does...

If I were a local, I'd be paying very close attention to where that scheduled land ends, looking a bit outside that, prefereably on access land, and poking at some bits that look promising. On overlay of the cave map in that vicinity and the SAM boundaries on a sat image would be a very good thing to have...

Does CROW give a right to dig now; or is landowner permission still required?

Offline NewStuff

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It does...

If I were a local, I'd be paying very close attention to where that scheduled land ends, looking a bit outside that, prefereably on access land, and poking at some bits that look promising. On overlay of the cave map in that vicinity and the SAM boundaries on a sat image would be a very good thing to have...

Does CROW give a right to dig now; or is landowner permission still required?

Who said anything about digging? As I understand it, Twll Du, and other places, are under an exceedingly thin layer of topsoil. Just exploratory caving would likely dislodge it. So, to answer your question - Neither.

Permission? Wassat den?

Offline David Rose

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I know of at least one passage in the system that ends close to the surface in an area which is on CROW land and owned by a different landowner to the existing entrances. There may be more.

I report this in as unbiased a way as I can.

Offline Rhys

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Nice try Newstuff. "Dislodging topsoil" sounds like digging to me. This sort of "clever" wordplay just makes you look foolish.

Offline ChrisJC

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Nice try Newstuff. "Dislodging topsoil" sounds like digging to me. This sort of "clever" wordplay just makes you look foolish.

Not as foolish as cavers complicit in filling in an entrance to a cave!

Chris.
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Offline crickleymal

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Can't we just give it a rest? The arguments go round in circles like a bunch of geriatrics in a home.
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Offline Rhys

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Not as foolish as cavers complicit in filling in an entrance to a cave!

Chris.

Unfortunately, two fools don't make genius!