Author Topic: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community  (Read 4232 times)

Online mikem

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2019, 11:42:06 am »
Indeed, but that factor also applies in the US

Offline droid

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2019, 12:10:50 pm »
Absolutely Mike.

But there does appear to be an element of 'entitlement' creeping in to the access attitude here. Which is understandable on CRoW areas, but misplaced on private land....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Keris82

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2019, 12:53:50 pm »
Very philosophical, Kenilworth, and I can't help but agree with you. But Keris82 was primarily asking something else (albeit expressing concern about a dying sport): our experience of interactions with other clubs and groups than our own. And as in all walks of life, experience will depend entirely on which groups you interact with.

Yes thank you for the clarification. I think my point got a bit lost and deviated from my original comment. And i agree with mikem too

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2019, 01:04:45 pm »
It's not 'the sport' so much as the community that people are worried about. Our huts, our events, our organisations that help cavers achieve so much more than having to reinvent the wheel. So the 'young people these days want everything for free', 'is nonsense from boomers who had so much given to them anyway.

I think we're in a good situation, but there are quite a few clubs that still keep to themselves. If you help run a club and want to know how to broaden your intake and be more approachable, I (and other members of BCA Youth and Development) are more than happy to help so please do get in touch.

Online PaulW

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2019, 01:27:27 pm »
as an update.

Keris hope you have a great trip on saturday to the cave you were after a leader for...

and also caving with members from 2 other clubs on the trip

enjoy

Online mikem

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2019, 01:51:30 pm »
But there does appear to be an element of 'entitlement' creeping in to the access attitude here. Which is understandable on CRoW areas, but misplaced on private land....
Some people have always taken more liberties than they were "entitled" to & others have allowed themselves to be more restricted than the "rules" stipulated, the problem now is that larger numbers are competing for limited resources, so more conflict is almost inevitable. And, as people get more rights they assume they "deserve" even more...

Offline Keris82

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2019, 02:08:36 pm »
as an update.

Keris hope you have a great trip on saturday to the cave you were after a leader for...

and also caving with members from 2 other clubs on the trip

enjoy

Yes I'm looking forward to it! Thank you for putting me in touch with him  ;D

Offline Keris82

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2019, 02:11:38 pm »
It's not 'the sport' so much as the community that people are worried about. Our huts, our events, our organisations that help cavers achieve so much more than having to reinvent the wheel. So the 'young people these days want everything for free', 'is nonsense from boomers who had so much given to them anyway.

I think we're in a good situation, but there are quite a few clubs that still keep to themselves. If you help run a club and want to know how to broaden your intake and be more approachable, I (and other members of BCA Youth and Development) are more than happy to help so please do get in touch.

Great comments here and fantastic to hear you want to help clubs broaden their horizons  :clap2:

Online mikem

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2019, 02:24:44 pm »
Rostam is also part of the BCA vision & reform working group, with some info here:
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=news_events:jan19

Mike

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2019, 09:22:22 pm »
It's not 'the sport' so much as the community that people are worried about. Our huts, our events, our organisations that help cavers achieve so much more than having to reinvent the wheel. So the 'young people these days want everything for free', 'is nonsense from boomers who had so much given to them anyway.

I think we're in a good situation, but there are quite a few clubs that still keep to themselves. If you help run a club and want to know how to broaden your intake and be more approachable, I (and other members of BCA Youth and Development) are more than happy to help so please do get in touch.

Perhaps you are in a good position to help me understand what is being threatened. Let me say plainly what appears true to me:
1. Older cavers, who have worked hard for a long time to establish access, to create, nurture and operate clubs, to push and discover and dig, and to in some sense care for, perceive a decline in the number of new, young cavers, especially ones with the initiative to do the work needed to maintain their cherished and very personal establishment, or with the interest in and appreciation for their "legacy" of work and discovery that makes them feel fulfilled.
2. Younger cavers, who have a great enthusiasm for the act of caving, perceive a decline in the health of the establishment that allows them duty-free enjoyment of their passion.
Both sets express concerns about the loss of the sport or community, but in both cases it boils down to selfishness.

Older cavers should have been acting within the understanding that they would be forgotten, that the caves, the people on hand, the present, were the rewards for their work. It is not wrong to give a gift to future generations, but it is blindness to overinflate the value of what was simply a period of personal recreational activity.

It is not wrong for younger cavers to accept a gift from past generations, but they should realize that the greatest gift is not an establishment but an example of joyful work. If they are ignorant of and uninspired by the past, they have little right to its fruitage. If they understand the best legacy of the past, they won't panic even at the absolute downfall of all establishment, but will go joyfully into work and reward, just another line in the field of time.

It is foolish to call self-motivation and personal responsibility "reinventing the wheel". Caving is simple. The most cumbersome and complex and irriplacable aspects of the so-called caving community are also the least valuable. Everything done by past organizations and individuals could be wiped out overnight and the best and only important things would remain.

It's a hole in the ground.

Go in.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2019, 11:49:50 pm »
Perhaps you are in a good position to help me understand what is being threatened. Let me say plainly what appears true to me:

I see little point in engaging with someone who has already made his mind up.

Put simply: 1) Access is controversial, a lot of older cavers in times of empire building put these Draconian controls to restrict others exploration of a system to ensure that they'd get the glory and relish in the selfish solitude that features so often in your soliloquies to narcissism. Perhaps this quote will underline my contempt for trope against the 'feckless youth'.

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint. Hesiod 8th century BC

2. It doesn't boil down to selfishness, it boils down to wanting to protect their community. They express concern and actually try and change things because they want others to experience the joy they had.

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2019, 01:12:10 am »
Perhaps you are in a good position to help me understand what is being threatened. Let me say plainly what appears true to me:

Put simply: 1) Access is controversial, a lot of older cavers in times of empire building put these Draconian controls to restrict others exploration of a system to ensure that they'd get the glory and relish in the selfish solitude that features so often in your soliloquies to narcissism. Perhaps this quote will underline my contempt for trope against the 'feckless youth'.

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint. Hesiod 8th century BC

2. It doesn't boil down to selfishness, it boils down to wanting to protect their community. They express concern and actually try and change things because they want others to experience the joy they had.

I don't know if I understand all of your response, but I criticize youth and elders equally. To what end is "the community" to be protected? The joy they had depended on themselves, a few of their friends, and the caves. Nothing needs to be changed to protect that joy.

To put more simply the selfishness apparent in this myth of community, these are the things threatened: Glory. Convenience.

Both are unimportant.

Real communities involve careful memory, respect, interdependence, restraint. Caving, both in theory and in fact, requires none of the above. Communities are more than a common interest, more than a club. When they are broken, the homeless parts become a diminished record of what was lost. In the breakdown of a hobby organization there is no such loss.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2019, 07:42:55 am »
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

Offline 2xw

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2019, 08:14:36 am »
Kenilworth it is obvious from your comment that you are commenting merely on your own fictions and the realities of the situation are lost to you.

I'm sorry that you are not a member of a caving community where you live. You are welcome to come and experience ours. 

Offline paul

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2019, 08:46:39 am »
Often when cavers are asked "Why do you go caving?" besides the expected answers "To see the beauties underground", "To maybe find cave passage no one has seen before", "the physical challenge", etc., etc., usually they include "the companionship of others", "the shared experience", "talking about the trip with your pals in the pub afterwards".
For most cavers, caving is a shared experience whether an official Club or just a loose group who cave (or maybe even used to go caving) together.
And this is what they are trying to preserve as well as the caves themselves.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Online Fulk

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2019, 10:08:41 am »
Quote from Cap'n Chris:
Quote
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community";

I think that you make a very valid point here; I'm often bemused when people talk about 'The Gay Community', 'The Muslim Community', the this or that or the other community as though gays, Muslims, etc. are homogeneoous groups of people who all think the same and share the same hopes and aspirations.

By the way, in 1695, Robert Russel wrote in A Little Book for Children and Youth (subtitled Being Good Counsel and Instructions for Your Children, Earnestly Exhorting Them to Resist the Temptation of the Devil...):
... I find by sad Experience how the Towns and Streets are filled with lewd wicked Children, and many Children as they have played about the Streets have been heard to curse and swear and call one another Nick-names, and it would grieve ones Heart to hear what bawdy and filthy Communications proceeds from the Mouths of such...

Sounds like a weekend at the caving hut.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2019, 11:19:41 am »

Real communities involve careful memory, respect, interdependence, restraint. Caving, both in theory and in fact, requires none of the above. Communities are more than a common interest, more than a club. When they are broken, the homeless parts become a diminished record of what was lost.

This is where you are wrong. Thank you for putting an end to the argument. There is a caving community, stop being obtuse and verbose just because you don't want to participate.

Go to a GG winch meet, sing the songs, hell - just actually go to a club and see how many couples and families there are. But never mind, I've been told by a load of armchair activists that my community doesn't exist. I guess I should just stop trying.

Oh no wait I couldn't give a toss

Offline NewStuff

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2019, 02:00:43 pm »
The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

Now, call me cynical, but you seem to be in a very small minority that thinks in that fashion. This very site is evidence you're wrong. The people we go underground with are more.
A community is what you make of it. It doesn't mean that everyone will get a long all the time, it just means there's a community of cavers/explorers that like going underground.
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Offline Keris82

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2019, 02:47:06 pm »
Often when cavers are asked "Why do you go caving?" besides the expected answers "To see the beauties underground", "To maybe find cave passage no one has seen before", "the physical challenge", etc., etc., usually they include "the companionship of others", "the shared experience", "talking about the trip with your pals in the pub afterwards".
For most cavers, caving is a shared experience whether an official Club or just a loose group who cave (or maybe even used to go caving) together.
And this is what they are trying to preserve as well as the caves themselves.

I couldn't agree with you more Paul. I think most of us would agree that there is a caving community. Look at all the people here. And my partner and I are members of 3 clubs because we want to get the most out of the communities in which we have made friends in this past year.

Offline Martin Laverty

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2019, 06:39:50 pm »
I would say that it may be valid to talk of a 'caving world' made up of people who value caves, but that world is made up of many communities with different sets of values held in common ('sport' in the sense of enjoyed activity, 'speleology', photography,..). Sometimes these communities can be more or less closely identified with organisations (which is where bureaucracy comes in), otherwise they are ephemeral groups formed through proximity and/or friendship. There are also individual cavers who may interact with organisations or (the bane of organisations) see them as anathema.

I recognise all these from the International body (UIS) which has member organisations from many (but not all, and sometimes with national arguments over representation) countries with caves, to the UK national body, BCA, which has most (but not all) clubs and by no means all individuals who might classify themselves as cavers. This forum is, nominally, UK Caving, but embraces regular posters from the USA, Belgium, and elsewhere, while excluding some earlier prominent posters and officials of caving organisations, while being anathema to many other cavers...

Do the organisations cooperate? By and large, yes, but there are also vicious personal feuds which can, and do, percolate up from individuals (and occasionally groups) to infect and fracture organisations. I would suggest that most cavers have a tendency to anarchy: bureaucracy is aimed at taming this, but it will only work under wise leadership...(cf many other threads)...otherwise organisations fracture (cf history of British Speleological Association, England's first national body).

Offline NewStuff

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2019, 08:19:57 pm »
As with any community, you have "good" and "bad". Lurkers, and those who hog the limelight. Those with constructive input, and those that want to do it differently. A Community does not mean that all parts must mix in a homogenous mixture, and hopefully we'll never have that thrust upon us.

Example:- My club want naff all to do with the BCA in it's current form, and we believe that that caving/exploring needs to move forwards into the modern era, we also believe that it needs some sort of cohesive "governing" body. There are others that believe the BCA is set on a pillar, immutable, and that funny handsakes and permits in triplicate should rule forever more. We may not agree with each other, we may even vociferously disagree with each other, but we make up 2 facets of the larger UK caving community. There are many more facets to it, we're certainly not the biggest, brightest, or even the naughtiest.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2019, 09:44:07 pm »
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

This very site is evidence you're wrong.

I'm 100% convinced this very site proves the case admirably.

Online Fulk

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2019, 11:36:52 pm »
NewStuff: I've no axe to grind re the BCA . . . but I am interested in what you mean by:
Quote
and we believe that that caving/exploring needs to move forwards into the modern era

Would you care to expand on this?

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2019, 01:12:57 am »
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

This very site is evidence you're wrong.

I'm 100% convinced this very site proves the case admirably.

Everyone else in the thread seems to think you're wrong.

I like this debate style

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: bureaucracy and exclusivity in the caving community
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2019, 06:53:13 am »
Everyone else in the thread seems to think you're wrong.

That may well be true but it isn't the whole truth, however, since this forum does not comprise the totality of the nation's cavers and those that don't visit/use this site, by definition, support my view as correct by their very absence.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 07:32:16 am by Cap'n Chris »