Author Topic: More bad news for BCA modernisers  (Read 8300 times)

Offline Oceanrower

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2020, 09:05:22 pm »
As someone who came into caving from a climbing background I am often stunned by how badly cavers treat caves.

Bolts I can (generally) overlook but the amount of crappy plastic bags, old det cord, rope tat,  tools, unused rusty scaffolding, discarded/broken clothing, graffiti and general litter left lying about is, often, depressing.

Say what you like about the difference between climbing and caving (And climbers are very far from faultless) but cavers do have a habit of leaving their playground like an absolute shit hole!

Offline mikem

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2020, 11:07:17 pm »
Yep, I wasn't trying to suggest cavers are better than climbers, just that there is more conflict, within the sport, between conserving the sites & free access, than there is on the crags.

Members are anyone who's in the BCA - we all have different standards of what we consider acceptable.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2020, 07:44:10 am »
Stuart France said: "The main reason cavers join clubs is to get access to keys to caves".

This left me completely confused. There may be some truth in this locally, for you, but it's certainly not the case generally. I'm in four clubs and I'm there because of the camaraderie and the sharing of information and collective efforts on projects. Not to mention enjoying all the other benefits of spending time with like minded people.

In my recent experience, access has never been simpler, thanks to the efforts of a few notable individuals - whether you're in a club or a BCA DIM. One of those individuals, of course, is the subject of this topic (to ensure this stays "on topic").




Offline andrewmc

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2020, 07:46:24 am »
The idea that climbers are not as concerned about conservation as cavers is entirely fallacious. They had their own bolt wars, remember.

Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2020, 08:05:54 am »
Seems that discussion has been deflected away from the issue
to become a cavers are better than climbers rant!

How about some of the armchair warriors  getting back to the subjet of BCA!

Offline CatM

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2020, 08:06:04 am »
The amount of work that Matt and Gary have put into British caving in the last few years is phenomenal. I'm absolutely gutted that they feel resignation from BCA is their only option.

I hope that someone with as much positive enthusiasm will take over the webmaster role so that all Gary's hard work on the website etc does not go to waste. And let's hope that, thanks to the changes put in place after last AGM, democracy will prevail and those attempting to thwart Matt and Gary's efforts will be put on their place.

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Offline Oceanrower

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2020, 08:44:32 am »
Seems that discussion has been deflected away from the issue
to become a cavers are better than climbers rant!

How about some of the armchair warriors  getting back to the subjet of BCA!

And that is one of the things I dislike about this particular forum. The idea that some self righteous guardian of the internet should proscribe what we can and can't talk about.

If I'm having a conversation, maybe at work, maybe in the pub, the conversation flows and digresses. Nobody says "Oi! Can't talk about that. That's not what we started with". Why can't the same happen here without someone telling us what we should be discussing?

Oh, and incidentally, until I posted this I only saw one person ranting and the conversation was quite polite until someone kicked in with "armchair warriers". Only one of them on this thread so far... (two now, including me...)

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2020, 09:04:43 am »
Put your toy's back in the pram boy's, positive mental attitude  ::)

Offline droid

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2020, 02:19:30 pm »
Bollocks

Just trod on a Lego brick.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2020, 07:34:27 pm »
As an old Mendip caver presumably one of those resistant to change I wish to heck I knew what this was all about. Did it start with CROW ( sic ) ?
Why is there a supposed North-South divide? In any case, it all seems to be so one-sided. If there is another side represented by others why do not they come and put their own point of view? If this were a business there might be jolly chats on the golf course. Does everything have to go through committees? I am sure much of politics is decided unofficially on the side. A few face to face chats in the pub might have resolved some points. Too late now for that in all respects.

Offline 2xw

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2020, 08:34:30 pm »
As an old Mendip caver presumably one of those resistant to change I wish to heck I knew what this was all about. Did it start with CROW ( sic ) ?
Why is there a supposed North-South divide? In any case, it all seems to be so one-sided. If there is another side represented by others why do not they come and put their own point of view? If this were a business there might be jolly chats on the golf course. Does everything have to go through committees? I am sure much of politics is decided unofficially on the side. A few face to face chats in the pub might have resolved some points. Too late now for that in all respects.

If you want the other point of view go to DarknessBelow or keep an ear open in the Hunters. All the same people.

There isn't really a north south divide, there's a divide between a load of bastards from various areas. Most of them have hated each other for 40 years and shan't be stopping now.

I think it went beyond face to faces when the CNCC send the CSCC a cake and they asked if it was poisonous. The people involved in this - Matt, Gary, Cookie etc have had plenty of chats - they had an hour long one at Hidden Earth. A face to face might work if all this were based on real concerns and issues instead of personal vendettas.

The sooner we get some new blood in the better. For anyone thinking of it give it a crack. None of it is hard - although I accept this shite isn't a great advert.

I'd rather it was kept in committees actually. The less back door bullshittery the BCA has the better - ideally I'd like to see all council meetings live streamed. Might do a lot of council members and regional council reps good if they remembered they are accountable to those who pay in.

Offline Robert Scott

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2020, 08:41:17 pm »
... democracy will prevail and those attempting to thwart Matt and Gary's efforts will be put on their place.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Those attempting to thwart Matt & Gary's efforts have already been put in their place by the vote of members 82.5% in favour and by the vote of Groups 76.7% in favour. But it seems that a very small number of people cannot accept that their world has changed and are doing their damnedest to be rude.

Offline darren

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2020, 09:21:54 pm »
Well there you go Mr Old Ruminator.

Make what you want of the last two comments, but they do represent the tone of a fair chunk of the posts on this subject.

They are occasionally followed by requests that those from the other side post there views to aid understanding.

Views from the other side rarely get posted, can't think why.
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Offline 2xw

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2020, 09:44:54 pm »
Views from the other side rarely get posted, can't think why.

Matt is resigning because of a campaign of abuse.
Presumably you're saying that there's an argument from "the other side" where you would be persuaded that this is reasonable?

Perhaps if someone is unwilling to defend their behaviour publically it's because it is indefensible.

Offline darren

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2020, 09:50:01 pm »
Views from the other side rarely get posted, can't think why.

Matt is resigning because of a campaign of abuse.
Presumably you're saying that there's an argument from "the other side" where you would be persuaded that this is reasonable?

Perhaps if someone is unwilling to defend their behaviour publically it's because it is indefensible.

Maybe things don't get posted because snippets of a post are quoted out of context and then attacked.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2020, 10:03:35 pm »
There is the possibility of course that "they" just don't think this is the right arena to discuss it?

I've learned in life that jumping to conclusions too quickly is sometimes counter productive. Please understand I'm not taking any of the perceived "sides" here - this isn't my argument.
Just saying . . . .

Offline Ian P

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2020, 10:24:27 pm »
Another great loss for British Caving.

From what I could see Matt and Gary were an incredible team together complimenting each other’s skills. (Synergy personified)

To try and get the “other sides point of view” I went to the CSCC website to look for clues. A bit tricky to navigate but a quick look around didn’t find anything to change my thoughts, if anything my opinions are reinforced.

A couple of bits caught my eye, copied below. (I appreciate they are out of “context” but this is not to slant any view, the full documents are on the website)

We on the “outside” can only base our thoughts on the information we have.

I wish Matt and Gary all the best for the future and thanks for all your efforts.




‘The CSCC is once again accused of being negative and resisting change, we do not see it that way, we are working to ensure the continuation of British Caving as we know it and not to promote some hidden agenda where individuals rule the roost and access and insurance could be used to force cavers to toe the party line.
“Snip”
CSCC recommends that you vote against the removal of the group vote and its associated constitutional changes and show support for the retention of British caving as we know it,now and into the future. This recommendation was agreed unanimously at the last CSCC meeting”


“AB to make a formal complaint to BCA on CSCC’s behalf regarding the following points:
 In the past to represent a club at the BCA AGM, a letter naming the representative, on headed note paper, signed by the club secretary, was required. In this meeting many of the clubs represented, presented signatures on bits of torn up tea box and napkins. This shows very poor respect for the meeting and those have worked tirelessly behind the scenes to bring the meeting together and make BCA function for cavers.”

Offline Fishes

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2020, 10:30:19 pm »


Perhaps if someone is unwilling to defend their behaviour publically it's because it is indefensible.
[/quote]

Or more likely that they feel its not appropriate to have such a public discussion in a forum like this about issues that are often much more complex and nuanced than most of us realise.

Offline Jopo

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2020, 10:37:27 pm »
There is the possibility of course that "they" just don't think this is the right arena to discuss it?

If the BCA is to modernise and have electronic voting there has to be a web based forum for debates to take place and information passed on.
Perhaps those who don't wish to modernise realise that by moving into the digital age arguments and debates have to be well thought out and presented - not just 'it was always that way'.
I believe in 2020 is impossible to have a nationally representative body based on a AGM attended by less than 10% of the membership. There is simply too much information out there to hid in the dark anymore.

I am by no means promoting this forum as the right one but to move forward with any degree of member representation there has to be one.

Jopo

Offline 2xw

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2020, 11:01:33 pm »
Anything too complex or nuanced to be discussed in public is too complex and nuanced to be submitted to an AGM - which is public.

 I expect they'll be publishing the minutes of the meeting where they decided on them... any day now...  :lol:

Online PeteHall

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2020, 11:14:22 pm »
I expect they'll be publishing the minutes of the meeting where they decided on them... any day now...  :lol:

I expect not.

I believe that the CSCC secretary and his laptop with the notes and recording of the meeting are about 500 miles apart due to the timing of the lockdown. As I understand it, the minutes will not be available before lockdown is lifted and the secretary and his notes are reunited.

I have heard this from a number of sources and have no reason to doubt it, however a brief clarification from the CSCC would be nice.
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Offline Ed

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2020, 07:18:22 am »
I expect they'll be publishing the minutes of the meeting where they decided on them... any day now...  :lol:

I expect not.

I believe that the CSCC secretary and his laptop with the notes and recording of the meeting are about 500 miles apart due to the timing of the lockdown. As I understand it, the minutes will not be available before lockdown is lifted and the secretary and his notes are reunited.

I have heard this from a number of sources and have no reason to doubt it, however a brief clarification from the CSCC would be nice.

If only CSCC got with the 21 century and had a copy of the minutes on a cloud server.......

Offline mikem

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2020, 07:27:35 am »
Bit of a challenge with no internet, or decent signal, at the Hunters'! (BTW - have you seen Roger's collection of mobile phones nailed to a board?)

Offline Cavematt

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2020, 09:00:54 am »
Many of these issues arise when large organisations (such as regional councils) cease to interact proactively with their members and the very people they are meant to represent.

A handful of individuals then stay in position for long periods of time, proclaiming to represent that organisation, and becoming more and more entrenched in their own personal views, more attached to those positions, more fearful of relinquishing that position in case someone comes into it and changes things, undoing years of hard work. They gap between what they want, and what their members want grows larger without anyone realising and next thing you know, personal agendas are being pushed under the name of that organisation or regional council.

Remember; the CSCC proposals include the direct elimination of the roles that Gary and Jane, two proactive modernisers, currently hold in the BCA. These proposals are just directly malicious and are designed to drive out two of the BCA’s newest and most enthusiastic volunteers. There is absolutely no way in the world these can be spun as being ‘in the best interests of British Caving’ as the CSCC would have us believe. I find it absolutely impossible to imagine the CSCC members would agree with these proposals being put forward, as they have been, with their stamp of approval.

It is understandable that neither Gary or Jane wish to hang around with such underhand efforts being made to oust them, in the name of an entire caving region.

Neither Gary or I take the issuing of such criticism lightly. Believe, me, the criticism Gary and I have made in our statements over the past few months have come after lengthy failed efforts to resolve these issues in a more respectful way outside of the public eye, and then after seeing the deliberate attempts to undermine us and the relentless barriers imposed at every stage by a small number of people proclaiming to represent a large number of people.

The issues also arise because cavers have better things to do than attend meetings and get involved with regional councils. This is totally understandable, but it means the people calling the shots are infrequently questioned or held to account. Nobody ever asks ‘hang on, did I agree to that’?

Eventually however all such issues come to a head. A similar situation happened in the CNCC in 2014. The former Officers at the time were great people but had been in position for a long time, proactive engagement with northern cavers was minimal, and the impatience of cavers with the access situation in the Dales at the time had gone unacknowledged. They were desperate to get out of their roles but nobody came forward. In 2014, northern cavers made a stand. This was quite messy for a little while, but the result was new people getting involved.

I have wondered whether this is a cycle, and one that repeats every 10 years or so? We shall see.

If southern cavers are dissatisfied with the CSCC, they too need to make a stand. The end result could be a progressive and revitalised Council that does more than barely make quorum at each meeting and that exists for more reasons than just maintaining the status quo. But it may also be that southern cavers are very happy with the status quo; I simply don’t know.

Finally, I should clarify that although myself, Gary and Jane have been the focus of several of the discussions due to our stepping back from our BCA roles, we are far from the only modernisers within the BCA. The BCA Council is a generally fairly progressive group who have supported most change over the past year, and credit is due to a number of them who work so hard in their own roles and have delivered real change. I’m not going to pick out names as that would most likely result in the accidental omission of some great people, but many of you are reading this and you know who you are.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: More bad news for BCA modernisers
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2020, 09:30:46 am »
There is the possibility of course that "they" just don't think this is the right arena to discuss it?

If the BCA is to modernise and have electronic voting there has to be a web based forum for debates to take place and information passed on.

(bit of text left out here)

I am by no means promoting this forum as the right one but to move forward with any degree of member representation there has to be one.

Jopo

I'm also a massive fan of this UKCaving forum - but . . . .
This is something I've suggested in the past on here. Discussions of this type really should be on BCA's own independent forum. It has one of course ( https://british-caving.org.uk/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=4 ) but few cavers use it presently. Perhaps the answer is a drive to get the BCA forum used more?

I'd very much like to point out that I don't want to direct attention away from here (i.e. the UKCaving forum) because it's run by dedicated volunteers and is absolutely excellent. It's just that I've always thought BCA business would be most efficiently done on BCA's forum.

 

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