Author Topic: Peak District book research questions  (Read 2795 times)

Offline Martin Wright

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Peak District book research questions
« on: June 05, 2020, 02:26:57 pm »
As part of the research for a book, I have a few queries which I am hoping someone on here will be able to help me with as the lockdown is preventing me from going out to check for myself. There were loads more queries, but some good friends, including the lovely ladies at the British Caving Library, have managed to resolve most of them.
So, fingers on the buzzers, here are the remaining questions:
1. The Mucky Ducks in Peak Cavern were first passed on 23 January 1949 by Trevor Ford, Norman Brindle and A N Other. Does anyone know the name of the third caver, please?
2. One of the cave divers active in Peak Cavern in 1950 was C James. Can anyone tell me what the "C" stood for, please?
3. Similarly, a diver in Speedwell Cavern in 1952 had the surname Price but I cannot find a Christian name or even an initial. Can anyone help with this, please?
4. In 1948, Bill Mack and A N Other dived in Carlswark Cavern. Does anyone know the name of the second diver, please?
5. In 1965, Ken Pearce dived in Peak Cavern with D Abbott. Can anyone tell me what the "D" stood for, please? (And I'm sure it wasn't Diane  :lol: )

Any light that anyone can shed on these would be much appreciated.
Cheers, Martin
The deepest solace lies in understanding this ancient unseen stream

Offline bograt

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2020, 06:17:02 pm »
Very vague recollection of a Dave Abbott in the 60's ??...
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Offline aquamole jim

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 12:22:19 pm »
I believe the Cave Diver in question is James Corbett, He continued past the limit of the Oxygen Divers at Ink Sump using compressed air, "open circut" diving equpment which had just become available, using this He was able to dive below the maximum depth of the "closed circut" pure oxygen rebreathers which most cave divers were using at the time, He extended the sump to what we now know is half way a big achievement for the time! I believe He is still alive and living abroad, Jim

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 01:31:31 pm »
I believe the Cave Diver in question is James Corbett,

I think aquamole jim might mean James Cobbett.

Mark

Offline aquamole jim

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 01:42:02 pm »
Thanks Mark, yes

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 02:11:02 pm »
I didn't think James Cobbett was active in Peak quite as early as 1965 - but could be wrong. I was involved in putting Martin in contact with James, so hopefully he can check that directly.

Offline Martin Wright

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2020, 11:00:47 am »
Thanks for all the responses so far.
The cave diver I'm looking for is "C James" not "James C". I have already received lots of useful material from James Cobbett. Most of the queries relate to much earlier, when books and journals had the annoying habit of referring to everyone by their surname.
Cheers, Martin
The deepest solace lies in understanding this ancient unseen stream

Offline JohnMCooper

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2020, 01:07:40 pm »
Not having a subscription to "Nature" I'm not sure if this might help:

https://www.nature.com/articles/166894a0

Offline bograt

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2020, 05:06:19 pm »
Another bell ringing for Clive James, anyone recognise the name?
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2020, 06:56:29 pm »
A late TV personality - originally from Australia?   :-\

Offline bograt

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2020, 09:12:00 am »
 :-[ :-[ :-[ My bad  :-[ :-[ :-[
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Online Scud

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2020, 12:37:08 am »
Question 1, In Cave science vol 18, no 1. It lists Trevor Ford, Norman Brindle, Chalky White, Eva X and others. It’s on page 20.

Offline Martin Wright

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 09:00:48 am »
So, further research has established that the "Price" is P.H. Price. Does that ring any bells for anyone, please?
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Online T pot 2

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2020, 11:07:16 am »
Mark
I refer to your question 1
I have book that informs the reader that the mucky duck were possibly crossed by boat in the min 1800s

Offline Martin Wright

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2020, 12:22:52 pm »
Hi T pot 2 and thanks for posting.
Can you give me details of the book please, as that differs from all of the other historical records I have seen?
Cheers, Martin
The deepest solace lies in understanding this ancient unseen stream

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2020, 12:35:47 pm »
Was it the Mucky Ducks - or was it the smaller tunnel on the left of the inner gate in the show cave, before the existing route was made / enlarged? Isn't there a record somewhere of that having been the way Queen Victoria visited, lying on a low punt?

But elsewhere I seem to remember seeing a record of the pools just past Victoria Aven having been crossed by a boat in the 19th Century. (Possibly in one of the Puttrell accounts?)

Separately - Martin - a week or two ago I sent an email with information about how to contact a certain person in Langcliffe regarding a photo. If you didn't get this, send me an email and we'll sort it.

Online pwhole

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 01:25:44 pm »
Yeah, Puttrell and co did the Wallows in a boat in 1904 I think - hilariously after just free-climbing Victoria Aven. Strange risk-management, but there you go. It was only when one of them fell out of the boat and realised it was waist-deep that they all got out and waded instead. They found the miner's sled just beyond, near Speedwell Pot. Scud just got me a PDF of the account but it's over 10MB so I can't post it as an attachment.

Offline JohnMCooper

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2020, 02:07:24 pm »
re Puttrell

In "Jim Puttrell Pioneer Climber & Cave Explorer" by J.P.Craddock are caving exploits as follows:

Chapter 7 Eldon hole
Chapter 8 Speedwell Cavern
Chapter 9 Peak Cavern
Chapter 10 Blue John & Treak Cliff Caverns
Chapter 11 Giant's Hole & Oxlow Caverns

In Chapter 9 pp 120-121 there is an account and photograph of the ascent of "Victoria Cavern" followed by exploration of what is now known as "The Wallows" on 1st March 1902.

A book well worth reading.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2020, 05:48:02 pm »
It is indeed a book well worth reading, although the tales of Puttrell's caving exploits occupy only the first part of the book - after that he seems to have concentrated on climbing. Puttrell was allegedly the first one to pass the "Curtain" in the Giants streamway in 1902 and in later visits from 1904 onwards he and his friends found Pillar Crawl and the Backwash Sump.  At this point the cave "ended" until Backwash Sump was passed by Ken Pearce and BSA North Midlands Group members in 1954, after a 3-year siege involving the building of 3 dams in the passage before the sump. 

All these features were blasted away in the winter of 1966/67, during the Foot and Mouth epidemic when all caving was banned.  Tom Watson, the owner of Giants, sought help from Bill Revell in an unsuccessful attempt to turn Giants into a show cave.  It resulted in the cave being an easy stroll from the entrance to the top of Garlands Pot and Garlands was reduced to 15 ft. from its former 30 ft. by rubble from the blastng tipped over the edge.

Some of these epic attempts are detailed in DCA Newsletter 152, "The Derbyshire Caver", available on the DCA website www.theDCA.org.uk.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2020, 05:58:45 pm »
I guess that would be considered unacceptable today  - or would it?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2020, 06:05:23 pm »
There's a whole load of administrative safeguards in place these days, to make sure such projects have been thought through properly. (But perhaps we shouldn't stray off topic?)

Offline darkdescender

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2020, 06:41:32 pm »
Yes the Diver with Ken Pearce was Dave Abbott, who was also on the 1964 KP Berger Expedition.

Online alastairgott

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2020, 07:23:38 pm »
Don't want to stray off topic, but have just listened to your interview on the 1964 KP Berger expedition, an excellent listen. http://caving-library.org.uk/audio/playback-246.html

Online T pot 2

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2020, 07:50:59 pm »
Martin
The book I mentioned is titled

Ancient caves of castleton by John royse
He states that by boat they continued on from Victoria aven by boat to foreside mine which purportedly connected to speedwell cavern.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Peak District book research questions
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2020, 08:16:05 pm »
Is that the Royce who left his name in the large chamber up the rickety shafts in the Halfway House series in Speedwell Cavern?

He must have been a pretty handy caver - and obviously knew the system well.

Please can you remind us what's the date of that book?

 

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