Huts re-opening - not quite yet

[mrc7cam]

What seems problematic to me is that much of the guidance seems to assume that there will be employees carrying out the cleaning etc and overseeing of the regulations. Also Hostels such as the YHA are keeping their communal areas such as lounges & kitchens closed but how do you enforce that in a caving hut?

In Club Huts who is going to be responsible for overseeing that regulations are adhered too? Also what is the insurance position regarding liability on committee and members for any COVID19 related claims brought against individual clubs? Has the BCA insurer been consulted for example?

[maxb727]

Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation on advice to hotels.

Section 2.1:

Current government guidance states that private rooms in all indoor accommodation with en suite showering facilities, or one designated shower facility per guest room, will be able to reopen. Shared toilet facilities can also be opened. If shared toilet and shower facilities are in the same room, guests are able to use the toilet but can only use the shower if it is assigned to one household or support bubble or run using a reservation and clean rota. Dormitory rooms will be closed (except where housing parties from the same household or support bubble), as will other indoor shared facilities (e.g. guest kitchens or TV rooms where social distancing cannot be observed).

places like the YSS might be okay with their many rooms but maybe huts with large dormitories will struggle for now.

[Bob Mehew]

It will take a bit of imagination by Club Committees to work out how to apply the guidance.  My outline thought was one household per bunk room & designated toilet plus a small band of cooks working to commercial hygiene standards doing all the cooking and serving as in a restaurant.  People don't need to be employed they just need to accept the committee instructions.  Camping in the grounds may well be a simpler option.  But first and possibly most importantly, how will the neighbours react?

We have also just put up advice on inspection before re-opening, see https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=start.

Insurance is no different from existing position and exposure to risks.

[Bob Mehew]

One alternative to using an indoor kitchen as source for a restaurant service, is for people to cook outside.  As well as camping, people could use caravans and motor homes.

I also note 2.1.2 item 3 of the government's advice states:

Closing shared sleeping spaces (i.e. dormitory rooms) to any groups, except those travelling within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups.

So there apears to be some wriggle room there.

Also item 5

Taking all possible steps to reduce the risk of transmission in shared shower, changing, and toilet facilities including ... running a reservation and clean process (whereby one household can exclusively book the shared facilities for a fixed time, and the facilities are cleaned thoroughly between reservations).

So a condition of use could be to do the cleaning after use.  (For cleaning see the annex in our advice.)

Clubs need to get a few people together to work out what they can and can't do within the framework of the layout of their hut.  A large committee will just grind itself into the ground doing the detail, though a full committee will need to OK what ever is produced as they will be first in line if someone complains.

[pwhole]

Where a hut is located is critical to the calculations really - the TSG is in the middle of a busy honeypot village whereas Red Rose (for example) is literally in the middle of nowhere, so it's hard to compare them directly. But both sets of locals may or may not want activity yet if it means random visitors arriving from different parts of the country. The population of Castleton can't be ignored in our determinations as we operate alongside them. We have a few couples in the club who live together, so they could share a bunk and use a combined shower/toilet together or separately. But no-one else could, if they were to choose to do that, until it was all cleaned down again afterwards. As our showers are normally used after caving, they get muddy, so often get hosed-down first and then cleaned with disinfectant on the contact surfaces. But if the hosing-down blasts virus all over the changing area (as the water spray always does), then that's hardly the answer. So someone has to hand-clean everything, and who's going to do that as a volunteer? You might catch Covid-19 from cleaning down someone else's showering?

We're not panicking over the legal aspect per se, but as volunteers we do have to be aware that we're facilitating a hobby primarily, and that our normal risk-assessments are tilted more toward caving activities and keeping the physical structure of the building safe rather than the implications of delivering a potentially fatal infection to our members and visitors, outside the obvious ones from water pipes, etc. So there's a lot more thought needs to be put into how we implement any new procedures, and what impact they might have on 'normal' hostings, both for us and our neighbours. The local villagers are famously tolerant of late-night (sometimes noisy) revelry at The Chapel, possibly as many will have consumed similar beverages and 'understand'. And I suspect some like our eccentricities and believe we make the place more interesting. But I doubt they would understand that sort of activity right now, so I would imagine that any re-opening for us would have to be very slow and steady, and extremely well-behaved.

[maxb727]

What the locals think is important but also you could look at what other hotels etc in the hut area are doing to know what would it wouldn’t work in that area.

It doesn’t make sense to close club huts that have a workable solution if local hotels are open.

I hope that makes sense. I couldn’t quite get my words right.

[Bob Mehew]

Where a hut is located is critical to the calculations really

I certainly agree with that and asking them is a good way of finding out / warning them of the change.  Which is why I think the ball is mostly in the club's court. Plus the layout of the hut is critical to deciding how to adapt.  It may well be that club's decide it is too much trouble or the risk is to great.  Let's hope not.

I see the Scottish First Minister has announced re-opening of holiday accommodation from 15 July.  So that leaves the Welsh government to make a decision tomorrow and announce it on Friday.  Let's hope their details will be similar.

[alastairgott]

Pwhole and Badlad, I've a confession to make!

I've dismantled the common room and shoved all the miscellaneous stuff into both the members and non members rooms. I've been applying magnolia (the colour that acts best as a magnet for Jelly and haloween fake blood) liberally around the walls and ceiling.

but in the limited amount of time last weekend, I've only got so far... This week I was hoping to get more magnolia on the ceiling of one half of the room and then finish off that half of the room and push everything to the finished half of the room, but was unable to do this last night.

I'm helping my mum this weekend, so it's likely to be delayed further.

Until it's done, we (most likely) wont be opening up the hut to visitors, our tacklemaster is always on hand to make a decision as to whether members can borrow tackle.

Due to the nature of the works to paint the hut a number of our fire exit signs have been pulled from the wall. until these are back in place, the hut really cannot be opened to visitors, as opening the hut to people unfamiliar with the layout and location of fire exits is asking for far more headaches.

I for one, am keen to get the hut open as soon as possible, and will continue to work with our members to ensure this is possible ASAP!

[oldboy]

Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation on advice to hotels.

The guidance is clear regarding dormitory accommodation and changing rooms
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation#section-2-1
Particular reference should be given to item 2.1.1.2
I.e.  2.1.2 Hostels
Fuller considerations for hostel operators are set out by UKHospitality, but particular consideration should be given to ensuring that hostels operate within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups by:

Taking measures to make reception areas safer, with increased cleaning, keeping the activity time as short as possible and considering the addition of screens between guests and staff
Considering minimising lift usage from reception, and providing clear signage for new lift rules
Closing shared sleeping spaces (i.e. dormitory rooms) to any groups, except those travelling within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups.
Closing other shared facilities:

– communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food
– other communal areas (e.g. TV rooms) where social distancing can’t be managed within current government guidelines.



Sent from my iPad

[alastairgott]

I’m sure there are many ways to ensure that cavers retain social distancing. I’m sure in the fullness of time we may be able to offer some facilities to cavers (even if they aren’t sleeping, cooking or washing).

[Bob Mehew]

Closing other shared facilities:

– communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food

I part repeat

One alternative to using an indoor kitchen as source for a restaurant service, is for people to cook outside. 

You need to think innovatively if you really want to re-open your hut albeit with limitations.  I am aware that one club has already thought their way through the challenges and plans to re-open on 4 July.

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

[mikem]

You can have time slots, or only one person / party agrees to do the catering.

Rules are different for private member's club, versus rental out to other groups (although not from a covid19 viewpoint).

Problem is that club huts seem to come in two designs - very few bedrooms, or lots of those, but not sufficient communal space for current requirements!

[Pete K]

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

[JoshW]

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

100% this. this outbreak isn't nearly over yet, and safety of everyone must take priority!

[Bob Mehew]

Off topic I know but

safety of everyone must take priority!

The counter to 'safety must take priority' is I hope you have ceased driving as you are a threat to others in a car.  But the reality is the threat level you present by driving is accepted by all and sundry.  But we have yet to get a coherent acceptance (or rejection) of the threat from the Corona 19 virus.

The probability of death from the virus if you are under 65 is fairly low, to which one has to add the probability of catching it.  I won't bother with numbers but I will claim it is small enough to permit a divided opinion on whether it is an acceptable risk or not.  It obviously is not overly large (like Ebola) or trivially small (like the common cold).  I very much doubt if the virus would significantly impact on a club, assuming the club reasonably represents the population at large.  So I accept that it is not unreasonable for a club to look to re-opening their hut albeit in a manner quite different from normal.  I would also suggest that given the total caving population is around 6000, the chance of overwhelming the NHS is not significant.  And by judicious choice of cave, the risk of needing a rescue minimal.   

So to be positive, one could get a group of mates to drive to a hut in separate cars, chat outdoors when they meet up, sleep in their cars or tents, cook breakfast outside or get a couple of them to cook for every one and another couple to clean the kitchen afterwards plus each individual clean every contact surface in the loo after they use it and every other contact point within the hut they touch.  That will go along way towards minimising the risk of transferring the virus.  I have not tested that outline against the government's criteria but I think it would go a long way to meeting the demands.

What I will reiterate is the need to be confident that a club will not upset its neighbours by re-opening.  That will require care and tact and should be the first consideration. 

[alastairgott]

If other clubs wish to debate this, then they can. On behalf of my club the TSG I am opting out of this debate and would urge other members to do the same. No single member of our club makes decisions, we are a collective, and will make our decision based on members past and present.

[mikem]

I doubt many will discuss specifics on a public forum, unless they feel they are not being listened to. Most clubs will be talking about it in their own media, so it is useful to see what other clubs are feeling...

[Jenny P]

It does seem that many clubs are using the time to check their huts and also do some essential maintenance and improvements.  Depending on where the club is situated it may be possible to do this without worrying neighbours.  It's also possible to carry out work where only one person is on site at a time and where you have already set out cleaning routines to be carried out by those working before they leave the site.

Having a club hut, which is technically classed as a 'hostel', right in the middle of a village does have problems which other huts way out in the middle of nowhere don't have to worry about. 

However, as Pete's post from earlier today show, we'd do well not to be complacent and assume it can't happen to us 'cos we're rufty tufty cavers.

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

[menacer]

Personally I think the whole thing is ridiculous and clubs owe it to their members to open up or refund the membership fees for services not provided

Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?
If you don't want to risk your life doing any of the above, don't do it.
Fine, you stay away if thats what you want, but to ask all other club members at the expense of their daily mental health suffering is cruel and narrow minded.

You cannot make a public space safe from Covid.
Its here to stay.
It'll still be here in 5 years time.

You want to wait for a vaccine, fine, you stay away and stay at home waiting
.
In the meantime other people would like to continue living their lives without everyone treating them like their some sort of typhoid Mary.

Open clubs to members at their own risk
 
We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
Its not realistic in a hostel style setting and will never be an avoidable hazard
 Ever

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will. 

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down.
Shit happens.

You all know this.

I will offer a solution also rather than just rant.
I belong to 2 caving clubs, as such I can take up the position from any committee person who doesn't want the risk of clubs opening on their shoulders.
I invite anyone similarly minded to offer the same.


See sense people please. 

[andrewmc]

You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

People are waiting for government legislation that lets them do it *legally* - you can't expect people to open club huts in a way that is illegal. That is different from following or not following guidelines.

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will. 

Actually, some of them do...

[Badlad]

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday.  A run around those clubs reps who had huts suggested  that some had opened their tackle stores and others planned to do so soon, mostly with a booking system.  Some planned a phased reopening of accommodation starting with a limited use of either household or social bubbles, booking, camping outside etc, but at least something.

Of the clubs without huts, all who spoke were doing some caving, if limited.  Digging, small group or family trips etc. mostly adhering to the CNCC advice of being cautious, caving within capabilities and being considerate to others.

The vast majority of caves in our area are open, with landowner support and approval.  A few are not so check CNCC website or ask local cavers first.  Our chairman reports, and I concur, that we have had no complaints from landowners or local communities and some gratifying expressions of support where we have been invited to help.  The honey pot visitor sites across the Dales have been inundated at times with some poor behaviour reported and mountains of trash left behind.  However, as far as we can tell it has not affected the high regard with which cavers are now held by many landowners who have benefited from our assistance over the years. 

If you are caving in the Dales please help us maintain and improve on this positive opinion.

[mikem]

& most Mendip huts are in a similar position (clubhouses are also supposed to stay shut, never mind hostels). There's nothing to stop locals caving, apart from the lack of information flow.

[Pete K]

...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...

I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.

Open clubs to members at their own risk

Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.

Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.

Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....

We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.

[PeteHall]

As I have said elsewhere, if this virus is here to stay, we're just going to have to get used to it.

Commercial cleaners, sanitising everything, every day in club huts is not a long term solution.

Members sanitising everything they touch after touching it is not a long term solution.

As menacer says, we're all grown up's and need to make our own decisions about what risks we are or aren't prepared to take.

This whole situation has seen the most unprecedented erosion of civil liberty, which I find very worrying. Yet anyone who stands up to it is accused of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude,  or worse. I'm amazed that there haven't been riots, oh wait...

It's no wonder people are keeping their heads down and carrying on regardless. Those opposed will be at home and none the wiser. Anyone you meet out is clearly of the same mindset.

[Bob Mehew]

Members sanitising everything they touch after touching it is not a long term solution.

It is worth bearing in mind on the specific topic of sanitisers and disinefectants, that there are two types, anti-bacterial and anti-viral.  Being one does not mean it will deal with the other.  The most recommended hand sanitiser is a 70% alcohol based hand rub as it deals with both viruses and bacteria.  Unfortunately it is costly.  Which is why you will find many hand sanitisers made available at places are only anti bacterial.  Hence of no value against the Covid 19 virus.