Author Topic: Huts re-opening - not quite yet  (Read 3773 times)

Offline menacer

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2020, 11:19:44 am »
...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...
I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.
if a person travels out stays in an area whilst showing symptoms, that person is likely to do so anyway, any where, whether caving club, supermarket, petrol station
 

If a person shows no symptoms, the same applies anywhere every day of your life, for ever.
How would they knows they a) had it or b) was the cause of someone else getting it

Open clubs to members at their own risk
Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.
How could you prove a person caught Covid and was severely disabled by it or did from it from 1 location.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.
quite right, with more emphasis on can do not can't do.
If you're uncomfortable with a can do attitude, maybe step aside and allow others to fill the void

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.
Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.
maybe, between every used glass, cup and utensil and touched surface?

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.
"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.
so, for how long?
I'm guessing you have either savings or furlough money. What will change in 3 months time for you to go to work again and use a caving club.
What are you hoping will change in 6 months time and then a year?
I feel pretty confident that in 1 years time, you could find yourself caving along side someone who is asymptomatic of Covid, but has it, do you lock away everyone now who has a cold, just in case you pass that cold to you're grandma and she dies of pnumonia?   

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.
Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.
as far as I'm aware, the original, ground zero family that bought Covid back from Italy on a skiing trip hasn't hasn't been prosecuted, and rightly so to.....

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....
We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.
yes, those of us who are sensible have continued to work and enjoy life throughout this, without causing Covid spikes or killing our fellow employees ( astonishing I know)
We do continue to be deeply saddened by the many people around who are losing their jobs, livelihoods, suffered mental health issues, isolation, anxiety, all of which caving clubs provide a daily part in preventing.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:28:15 am by menacer »
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Offline owd git

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2020, 11:30:08 am »
Wind your neck in, and why the red mist. eh?
you need to get out more! chill .  :kiss2:
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Online PeteHall

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2020, 11:43:37 am »
why the red mist. eh?
Red text is commonly used in the workplace to make notes on something someone else has prepared, be that an email or technical drawing. It makes it very easy to see what comment relates to what previous statement, rather than the alternative of a long rambling narrative.

At the end of the day, the lockdown is causing a lot of its own problems, many of which more serious to more people than coronavirus. This should not be underestimated.
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Offline menacer

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2020, 12:04:54 pm »
Wind your neck in, and why the red mist. eh?
you need to get out more! chill .  :kiss2:
Red mist?
Without an app on a mobile phone, its very hard to reply quotes in quotes.
So I opted to change the font colour.
If you'd prefer green I'm sure some mods could oblige. 

Why tell me to wind my neck in, are you one the anti free speech brigade that seem to dislike anything or anyone with a contrarion opinion, or are you a Chinese bot, out to suppress free speech  :ras: :tease:

As for getting out, I'm a key worker, worked throughout this, sometimes 7 days a week,  ( part of a countrywide organisation that's isn't dropping dead like flies and are carrying on regardless with a few "sticking plaster" modifications in the work place)

I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
Maybe I'm just blinded by the reality I'm living in, but we do have the lowest incidents in the whole country, I accept that, and I wonder why  ;)

« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 12:16:53 pm by menacer »
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2020, 12:47:01 pm »
...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...
I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.
if a person travels out stays in an area whilst showing symptoms, that person is likely to do so anyway, any where, whether caving club, supermarket, petrol station
True. It is the people who don't show symptoms that are more of a concern. Anyway, the point I was making was that your comparison between accepting risk when caving or driving when compared to catching or transmitting covid is flawed. For caving / driving you accept the risk to yourselves and maybe some of the small group who may be with you (or could be run over), for the virus you are accepting you risk not only the health of yourself but of countless others you might unwittingly spread it to. I'm not saying don't go out caving or to club huts etc..., I am simply pointing out your comparison is false.

If a person shows no symptoms, the same applies anywhere every day of your life, for ever.
How would they knows they a) had it or b) was the cause of someone else getting it

Open clubs to members at their own risk
Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.
How could you prove a person caught Covid and was severely disabled by it or did from it from 1 location.
I doubt you could but I'm not concerned with whether I might personally be prosecuted, I'm more concerned about how I would live with myself if I thought I had been a factor in transmitting the virus to friends and collegues. Again, I'm not saying caving should not happen or to keep clubs shut, I'm addressing your point that risk cannot be ignored by clubs just because some of their members may choose to do so.
We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.
quite right, with more emphasis on can do not can't do.
If you're uncomfortable with a can do attitude, maybe step aside and allow others to fill the void

I fail to see the point in your last comment other than to insinuate I am somehow responsible for closing caves or holding caving back. You should understand that some people are able to have reasoned debate about a topic and hold opinions without letting those opinions influence their work. All decisions which I am a party to have been made democratically and openly.
Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.
Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.
maybe, between every used glass, cup and utensil and touched surface?
That is why reopening needs careful thought and preparation, not just a sod it and open anyway approach.

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.
"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.
so, for how long?
I'm guessing you have either savings or furlough money. What will change in 3 months time for you to go to work again and use a caving club.
What are you hoping will change in 6 months time and then a year?
I feel pretty confident that in 1 years time, you could find yourself caving along side someone who is asymptomatic of Covid, but has it, do you lock away everyone now who has a cold, just in case you pass that cold to you're grandma and she dies of pnumonia?   

Sorry, I think you misunderstand my point or I have worded it poorly.
I accept that my personal liberties and hobby may be curtailed for a little longer in order to further reduce the risk to other members of society.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.
Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.
as far as I'm aware, the original, ground zero family that bought Covid back from Italy on a skiing trip hasn't hasn't been prosecuted, and rightly so to.....

I would never have suggested that they would or even should be culpable in a legal sense. I bet they feel pretty awful about it though.
All am I really reading in these responses are "I'm okay with it so to hell with everyone else" and "they can't prosecute you for it". I struggle with this line of thought as I'm more of the mindset that my actions do impact others and whatever the legal case is, do we not have a moral duty to take care of others as well as ourselves. Regardless of personal view, the law and the guidance is present and must be followed. Where it is not clear then surely it is up to us to ensure we are taking the more robust approach to the safety of club members and not the 'it'll be fine' approach that might (or might not) lead to disaster. I can't wait for clubs to reopen and for caving life to pick up again. I think there is no reason why most club will not be able to reopen in some way. I do think that any club who is considering this must make some very difficult choices and put in place some probably rather unpractical policies, but that is the way it has got to be for now.

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....
We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.
yes, those of us who are sensible have continued to work and enjoy life throughout this, without causing Covid spikes or killing our fellow employees ( astonishing I know)
Some sensible people have no doubt died, some have not. Some who ignored advice will have died and others not. Just because the actions of a single person in this time have not (knowingly) resulted in consequences does not mean that all people taking that approach would have resulted in the same outcome.
We do continue to be deeply saddened by the many people around who are losing their jobs, livelihoods, suffered mental health issues, isolation, anxiety, all of which caving clubs provide a daily part in preventing.


Offline Jenny P

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2020, 01:06:40 pm »
As Pete says:
I can't wait for clubs to reopen and for caving life to pick up again. I think there is no reason why most club will not be able to reopen in some way. I do think that any club who is considering this must make some very difficult choices and put in place some probably rather unpractical policies, but that is the way it has got to be for now.

My own club is in this situation but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment - if we were to open now we would risk prosecution. 

The Club Committee is constantly reviewing the situation and are trying to think in advance how we might be able to manage the situation when we are permitted to re-open, even if it's in a limited way.  In the mean time, like other clubs, we are carrying out essential maintenance and upgrades which can be done by individuals working alone and we have invested in hand sanitiser and antiviral sprays for the use of those who are carrying out work at the hut.   

We are doing the best we can under very difficult circumstances and trying to act in a responsible manner.

Offline owd git

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2020, 01:10:56 pm »
I see that the PM has indicated hotels can reopen from 4 July.  Could I have a couple of volunteers to help me work our way through what has been said so as to produce some advice for clubs with huts on re-opening?  Please PM me.

I note Bob Mehew didn't ask for a debate on our views.  :)
I am not a "bot"
I (in construction) am a key worker, not an impatient hero, nor advocate for the Durdle door lemming appreciation society. or whichever really brave type of self advocating club,like the bikers in our village 'Matlock bath' therefore at first hand i see daily what released frustration is like to deal with just trying to walk my dog.
Lastly; a club hut opening is hardly the only way to cave. is it? Another lastly; hut's still have costs, so refunds should possibly only be made to those in need  and unwaged. :ang:
my neck is now re-setting to former length.
P.S. I can walk to several caves , also (forbid) many open mines from home to enjoy at leisure, if i choose. Would I cave with anyone  I cannot trust to have no chance of commination?  answers on a postcard.
O.G.   
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Offline A_Northerner

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2020, 01:12:31 pm »
This is sending my colourblindness into overdrive. I wonder if it will be a rainbow by the time the argument is over?
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from hill to plain.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2020, 01:25:51 pm »
This is sending my colourblindness into overdrive. I wonder if it will be a rainbow by the time the argument is over?

 :lol: :lol: Apologies. I can record an audio version for you if you wish?

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2020, 01:52:19 pm »
I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
And now you expect your opinion to be treated seriously and with respect?

Offline mikem

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2020, 02:19:08 pm »
The other, previously mentioned, issue is that all huts are situated in small communities, even if they mostly aren't in the centre of the village, & their goodwill goes a long way towards the very existence of those clubs...

Offline menacer

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2020, 02:31:29 pm »
I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
And now you expect your opinion to be treated seriously and with respect?

If you're more inclined to rely on the' science of 'models' than real life occurrences, with real people in real large work places, then you wouldn't be interested in the positive stories and experiencesthat have come from this latest Corona virus. 
If you wish to concentrate on all the negatives and none of them positives on how it can, and has already been successfully managed in work place and leisure environments, then move on, there's nothing for you here and that's entirely up to you.
 
I can't ignore the successful positive outcome within the countrywide company I work for.
It worked.
We're all still alive.
The workplace didn't fall.
The relatives of the workers didn't drop like flies.
Those that were vulnerable'/elderly were furloughed. 

Its hard to see why a caving club can't operate similarly. 
I can't speak for others but one of my fellow sceptics ( not happy about healthy people being quarantined) also works for a large transport company were they literally share desks, hot bedding on offices of 200 people.
They still have zero cases.
Not one.
In my workplace, one hypochondriac with loads of' health issues" thinks he had it.   
No one else caught it.

Yet. .
Its only a matter of time.
Its not going away ever.
But it can be lived with just fine for the majority of people










« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:56:44 pm by menacer »
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2020, 03:18:55 pm »
...but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment...
I must correct that statement.  The English government's advice is quite clear that hostels can open provides various conditions are meet, as Section 2.1.2 of their guidance states, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation .  I note for example that the YHA are re-opening from 17 July albeit in a phased manner, see https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19 .  Indeed it was the news report of that fact which gave me hope that clubs could do so.

But it all depends how your club wishes to approach re-opening in adopting flexibility and applying restrictions etc.  I accept that the nature of some club huts offer little flexibility so may well end up being only able to let one person or household unit use the place, whilst others with flexibility could get in 5 or indeed more, given camping and motor homes could be used.  Though one would be careful to avoid the limitation of meeting more than 6 people by adroit care in where people come together even if it were the same location.

Offline mikem

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2020, 03:28:09 pm »
Jenny is clearly stating the situation at the current time, not next week. However, another difficulty is determining what is legally binding & what is just guidance, some of which is morally justified & other stuff that is taken out of context.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2020, 04:24:57 pm »
...but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment...
I must correct that statement.  The English government's advice is quite clear that hostels can open provides various conditions are meet, as Section 2.1.2 of their guidance states, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation .  I note for example that the YHA are re-opening from 17 July albeit in a phased manner, see https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19 .  Indeed it was the news report of that fact which gave me hope that clubs could do so.

But it all depends how your club wishes to approach re-opening in adopting flexibility and applying restrictions etc.  I accept that the nature of some club huts offer little flexibility so may well end up being only able to let one person or household unit use the place, whilst others with flexibility could get in 5 or indeed more, given camping and motor homes could be used.  Though one would be careful to avoid the limitation of meeting more than 6 people by adroit care in where people come together even if it were the same location.

The problem comes when you look at what is permitted in a "hostel".  For example, on 17th. July the YHA are opening only to those who have pre-booked and pre-paid at the very limited number of hostels where there are ensuite rooms and where all reception, cooking and common room facilities will remain closed.  In other words, the people staying there in ones, twos or small family groups, must have no contact with any other person or group.  (That's why holiday accommodation where one family group can stay in self-contained accommodation by themselves and with no-one else around will be permitted from, I think, July 4th.)

In a caving club hut where we don't have en suite facilities, it is very difficult to see how more than one small group can stay at any one time and we would then have to consider how it is possible to disinfect throughly anything they may have used or touched before anyone else can use it.  This might mean that all bedding (i.e. things like mattress covers) has to be taken away and washed before the next user comes in, despite the visitors having their own sleeping bags.  (Not sure what the regs. say on this.)  You would also have to rely on those staying to disinfect all other spaces they may have used: kitchen, washroom, shower, toilet, etc. when they leave and before anyone else can use the place. 

Camping is possible but, for example, the Camping & Caravanning Club are initially opening their club sites but only for those pre-booking and pre-paying and not opening any of the facilities: so no reception, shop, toilets, washrooms, showers, etc. although chemical disposal points will be provided.  That makes "camping" at a club hut (if it has the space to do so) very difficult if all shared facilities are effectively out of bounds.  C&CC are now suggesting that at some time later in July they may be able to have their toilets, washrooms and showers open but will have to take some out of use (e.g. bar off every other washbasin if there is a rank of them) to limit contact between users and they will also be cleaning the facilities at least 4 times a day.

YHA and Camping & Caravanning Club are large semi-commercial organisations with legal teams to go through the regs. with a fine tooth comb and the money to employ the necessary cleaners to comply with the requirements. 

Club huts are run by a bunch of volunteers so we have to do the best we can to think creatively how we might manage - but the complications are endless and, when you come down to it, it isn't necessary to stay in a club hut if you want to go caving.  It's immensely frustrating and disappointing and those members running the club will be worried that they may be held responsible if something goes wrong or they are found to have breached some regulation they weren't clear about.

The problem appears to be that anything which involves any shared facilities of any kind are covered by regulations involving endless layers of small print.  Add to this that these reglations are constantly being changed or updated so it's very easy to miss something and you have a recipe for confusion.  Appreciate that Bob is doing a magnificent job in following every twist and turn of this ever-changing circus and is doing his best to ensure that we are kept informed.

Offline Robert Scott

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2020, 04:41:57 pm »
Carmen - I feel that your presence at CSCC meetings would be an absolute blessing.

Offline menacer

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2020, 04:58:33 pm »
Carmen - I feel that your presence at CSCC meetings would be an absolute blessing.
:lol: :clap2: Maybe  :lol:
I doubt they'd agree.  :clap2:
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2020, 05:16:59 pm »
Jenny

After delving into the detail I recognised some while ago that the real challenge is applying the various constraints to the design of the hut.  I previously posted an approach which could be modified to fit many clubs and their huts.  As another example, a club could re-open their hut simply by allowing individual camping of groups combined with JUST the use of the toilet which is cleaned by the user after each and every use with materials supplied by the club.  (If tents can get onto their property of course.)   

By the way, I understand many clubs with huts got a £10,000 hand out from their local authorities if they were eligible for small business rate relief, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-coronavirus-small-business-grant-fund .  So money should not be an issue.  (Has that been mentioned elsewhere?)  With that sort of money the club could even hire someone to advise them.

It is up to the club committee to sort things out and make some new rules to permit as much of a re-opening as they feel conformable with.  And if they don't feel comfortable with any re-opening, then fair enough.  No one responded to my initial request, so I have taken the line that it is not feasible to provide advice from the centre. 

What I would like to see is clubs coming forward with their take on how to re-open their hut.  What I fear is that most are too afraid to do anything.

PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2020, 05:53:04 pm »
Bob,

Re. PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.

I'm going on the report in the Guardian, which does seem to have researched this fairly thoroughly.  It seems that there are around 30 or so YHA Hostels which have single or small family rooms with en suite facilities.  Most are in cities, for example YHA Rotherhythe and YHA St. Pancras - both in London - but I think there may be ones in Bristol, Bath, Birmingham, etc. which may also have these facilities and I can think of one countryside one, in Northumberland, which has a couple of double rooms with washroom/shower next door and I'm told Hartington Hall in the Peak District also now has some en suite rooms.  However, the majority of the YHA hostels still have bunkrooms and shared toilet/washroom/shower facilities and it's my understanding that these won't be able to open yet.  In any case, it seems the shared facilities such as kitchens and communal areas are likely to remain closed for the moment.

I note that a number of hotel chains are advertising that they will soon be open for bookings but I'm not sure how they will be able to organise their restaurants and other shared facilities.  Probably there is something in the regulations which covers this but confess I haven't looked up hotels yet.

I suppose we could use some of the £10,000 local authority handout which clubs have received as "small businesses" to employ cleaning staff so that during the summer we could allow small family groups to book the club hut for their use with one family at a time using the hut.  At least that way we would not have to worry quite so much about whether the previous users had really cleaned as they should.

My own club is using some of the money to improve our facilities and doing the work while we aren't able to have visitors.  We are also buying new equipment (rather than relying on donations of second-hand fridges, furniture, etc.) so that when we are at last able to re-open properly our members will feel that we haven't wasted the time.

The other problem may be the design of the hut, given that they are very often re-purposed buildings which weren't originally meant to be multi-use hostels.  Hence passageways and staircases may be of limited size making any kind of distancing very difficult.  Even some of the more recently purpose-built club huts may still have the same constraint on movement.

Guess we're all doing the best we can and trying to think creatively.

Offline Russell Myers

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2020, 06:39:58 pm »
Jenny, your reference to "restaurants" prompted me to reply that from 4th July Restaurants, Pubs, Bars will be allowed to open but don't get too carried away at the thought of a "lock-in", there are a shed load of restrictions such as max number of 30 in the venue, social bubbles, seated service etc etc . I've been working on it all week to help some of my company's clients prepare to re-open. Slightly off piste from the original post but an encouraging sign and close to many cavers hearts. :beer2: 
JFK: Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2020, 12:01:02 am »
Personally I think the whole thing is ridiculous and clubs owe it to their members to open up or refund the membership fees for services not provided

As membership secretary of my club I can assure you that no-one has asked for their money back, and I don't expect them to - it's hardly a major annual cost and is an investment in the facilities and infrastructure as much as it is an 'access fee' to use the hut. We've had some discussion about the ethics of closing down for now, but we've been pretty solid in support of the policy - or at least no-one's complained. I've actually had four applications or requests about joining since lockdown, and I did tell all those to save their money for now unless they really wanted to pay. In this situation it did seem unfair to charge them for not much benefit.

I can't verify this, but I also doubt that any member's mental health is suffering as a direct result of not being able to use our hut. It's one small facet of a hobby that's temporarily out of action, and there are far more stressful things going on out there that many are dealing with, including no work. I just restarted my current contract after three months of nothing. I'm also one of those cavers who does need the hut to go caving most of the time, but I'm coping OK. I'm missing my friends, but we're keeping in touch, and our underground projects, which occupy most of my caving time, are all on hold, but they're fine, and in one case is digging itself (foresight). There are other things to do in life - well in mine, anyway. There's a hundred other caving-related things can be done other than actually going caving, and in that respect I've never been busier. I'm still answering bloody emails at 23.50.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2020, 12:17:48 pm »
I have lost a dear friend in the last week, the last time I saw him I shared a whiskey with him from my hip flask, back in March. 10days ago he toasted the solstice with whiskey from a hip flask and then went onto cycle from Leeds to Liverpool.  he did not even get chance to fight against the covid.

It is indiscriminate, it kills, everyone that visits the hut is my friend, even if I’ve never met them. I don’t want to kill any more friends.

Offline mikem

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2020, 08:03:36 am »

Offline Badlad

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2020, 11:53:11 am »
Looks like excellent and well considered advice.  Hut usage is something caving organisations share with other activity organisers.  It is a classic example of where our small and volunteer led caving organisation might look to other larger and better resourced organisations for advice rather than using up a lot of volunteer time repeating effort.  If it was me I'd go as far as to formalise an arrangement.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2020, 03:24:56 pm »
Looks like excellent and well considered advice.  Hut usage is something caving organisations share with other activity organisers.  It is a classic example of where our small and volunteer led caving organisation might look to other larger and better resourced organisations for advice rather than using up a lot of volunteer time repeating effort.  If it was me I'd go as far as to formalise an arrangement.

My caving club tried to join the BMC system but were told we didn't qualify - don't quite know why - so sounds like not an option.  Are any othee caving clubs linked to the BMC Hut system?

 

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