The CNCC provides a wide range of resources via our website (www.cncc.org.uk) including rigging topos, cave descriptions, access information, details on anchors, conservation resources, safety notifications, regional news, and of course the online booking system.

We have been able to pull together some interesting statistics on caving habits from the usage and download data for our descriptions, topos and online booking system that we think might be interesting.

Read the full article here: https://cncc.org.uk/news/20200704-stats-from-cncc-online-services

Of course, there are numerous ways to interpret lots of these statistics, but we thought they made for an interesting read nonetheless

As a stats-lover, I think this is great
Just missing a 'Top of the Pots' - most popular caves by download, though it looks like Alum wins it at the moment.

Hi Jason, indeed Alum does appear to be 'winning' by a good margin in terms of topo downloads (and great that access is now back-on there too: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26715.msg327011;topicseen#new).

Good to see Notts Pot and Lost Johns' doing very well. No surprises also that Bull Pot, Aquamole, Jingling and Yordas rank high, as West Kingsdale has always been a popular spot.

Poor Rat Hole at Gaping Gill sits at the bottom of the list despite being online since digital topos were first launched.

Pool Sink at Ease Gill not proving too popular. This was the least-visited of all the rigged caves at Eurospeleo in 2016.

A whopping 702 downloads for Quaking Pot (more than Juniper Gulf, Rumbling, Gavel or Stream Passage Pot), despite being a relatively recent addition to the topo list! It seems the ambition (or wishful/imaginative thinking) of northern cavers is as strong as ever!

Who can guess what rigging topo the background of the image above is from? 

GarDouth said:

Who can guess what rigging topo the background of the image above is from? 

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Looks like the most downloaded topo to me

Interesting statistics indeed - where's all the women? I'm not caving up there if it's nearly all blokes. We're far more inclusive in Derbyshire  :halo:

Really?  Do you have the stats to back that up? 

Hypothesis: all the women are in younger groups who are less likely to bother getting a permit. Hence the high average age

Incidentally what average is that? Mean?

Who can guess what rigging topo the background of the image above is from? 

Click to expand...

Prob Alum, I guess. Though my first thought was Boxhead.

It's suprising Aygill is at number 3, I know I downloaded it once, but that does not account for all the others.

EDIT oh just realised it's not in download order.

Incidentally that second pitch can really do with a better initial anchor rather than that very uninspiring natural, unless I am missing something obvious!

2xw said:

Hypothesis: all the women are in younger groups who are less likely to bother getting a permit. Hence the high average age

Incidentally what average is that? Mean?

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I've always assumed it's the older buggers who don't bother getting a permit...

andrewmc said:

2xw said:

Hypothesis: all the women are in younger groups who are less likely to bother getting a permit. Hence the high average age

Incidentally what average is that? Mean?

Click to expand...

I've always assumed it's the older buggers who don't bother getting a permit...

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Maybe it's both and only the middle aged in their 40s get permits 

Badlad said:

Really?  Do you have the stats to back that up? 

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Not really! Although I don't think I'm breaking GDPR by using our (TSG) club membership stats (of currently active caving members), which is 36.2% female - better at least. The men do try to stay clean-shaven and take regular showers, which may explain the higher take-up

These stats show the numbers of men and women who have registered on the cave booking system for Leck, Casterton and Ingleborough.  They will be from all over the country not just the north and don't necessarily reflect the percentages of men or women caving in the north.  If anything it shows that it is mostly men that organise trips to these areas, or it could be that women are happy to let men organise these trips.

From my dealings with caver demographics, and I don't have the various figures to hand, I'd say that overall only 25% of cavers are women.  Within CHECC groups it often looks to have achieved near parity but within older groups much less so.  Still moving in the right direction it seems.  Where women are noticeably absent is within cave organisations and politics, but that might just show good sense.

You could be right on the last comment!

But I agree - it is moving in the right direction, particularly with the student groups. I was being slightly facetious earlier, but I do always feel a bit uncomfortable in single-gender activities, and would hope that the attractions of caving apply to all these days.

Now as to getting more women into rope-access - but I guess that's another forum altogether

pwhole said:

I do always feel a bit uncomfortable in single-gender activities, and would hope that the attractions of caving apply to all these days.

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The attractions of caving certainly apply to all who are attracted to them, regardless of gender, though I do wonder (at risk of being accused of sexism) whether the dis-attractions apply equally...

Thinking back to my university days, I recall a lot of women joining the freshers trips, but not so many sticking around...
Were we any less welcoming to female members? Certainly not intentionally. With a little thought, there could be any number of factors at play, not least perhaps having to get naked on the side of the road with a bunch of your mates 
Does this put off female cavers more than male cavers?

Looking further back, my grandmother and her sister were both cavers, yet their two brothers never caved. Perhaps things were different in the 40's and 50's? 

There's loads of clubs that manage to recruit and keep women which really proves that yes, you probably weren't as welcoming

We had plenty of female members who did stick around, so we can't have been that unwelcoming but my perception was that there was always a higher proportion of women on freshers trips... Perhaps they were just more keen to give lots of things a go during freshers term?

Looking at the group photo from this year's annual dinner (the week before lockdown), 24 male, 19 female so a fairly healthy balance

Yep. Just a recurring theme "maybe X gender just does X thing more" when there's about a million other more likely reasons

pwhole said:

Interesting statistics indeed - where's all the women? I'm not caving up there if it's nearly all blokes. We're far more inclusive in Derbyshire

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As one only requires one permit per trip (unless I've been doing it all wrong), I don't think that one can get much insight into caving participation from these figures.

Don't forget that in the 1960's when I started caving there were many clubs in the North and Midlands who did not accept women as members.  I was club librarian of my own club for 9 years before I was allowed to be a Full Member of the club and also secretary of DCA for 7 years before I was allowed to be a member of my club.

Part of it seemed to be the number of blokes who regarded the club hut as a place to stick pornographic photos on the walls - it wasn't the caving which attracted them, it was the men-only atmosphere, the naughty pictures and the heavy drinking.  However, there were some men who were just suffocatingly chauvinistic and assumed the "little woman" needed protecting and wouldn't like the mud and dirt down caves.

If you read the accounts of the old Eldon "hostel" in Buxton, you would have to wonder what the attraction actually was so it's good to know that Eldon now has a female Secretary who is also a respected Cave Rescue Controller!  I suspect the thing which finally cracked it was when grants became available from the Regional Sports Councils to help us improve the facilities at club huts.  The blokes soon twigged that men-only clubs in a sport which didn't run teams defined by gender (such as football clubs) weren't eligible for grants.