Author Topic: Trespass  (Read 3392 times)

Offline Duck ditch

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Trespass
« on: September 19, 2020, 04:26:27 pm »
Interesting walk today trying to avoid the crowds in the dales. 
After a rough walk I came to a gate with a private sign.  I knew I was on right to roam so I took the sign down. Through the gate a track came up from the left.  Railway type sleepers the width of the road was followed for about half a mile. Easy going but what about the habitat?
  I came across a Larson trap with a couple of crows. I let the birds out without damaging the trap.
A little further was a newly furnished shooting lodge. Blue barrels and pipes everywhere, what an eyesore.
I followed the stream down discovering a few swimming plunge pools (the purpose of the walk), but the biting wind and dead sheep upstream put me off.
I continued downstream noticing 6 rusting stoat traps.  I wondered what the fine would be for abandoning these in a lay-by.  Some new traps had been set up, so I sprung these.  Not damaging them.  Eventually I reached the eyesore of an abandoned pheasant pen. A Scrap metal and plastic mess.
I couldn’t descend the stream anymore without leaving the right to roam.  I decided to Trespass crossIng 2 rough grazing pastures via gates to reach the road.  Thus trespassing over 2 fields.
I suppose I broke the law here, but only in one specific and limited way.  So it’s okay

Offline JJ

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2020, 05:10:39 pm »
Well Duck ditch I expect I know where you where.

I too was out in the Dales this afternoon in that strong wind. Came across around 10 men with a number of dogs digging a hole. This was no cavers dig and so much for a group of six!!!

I fear for the poor fox or badger but then I was not sticking around to find out as I was on my own. Perhaps it was one of the dogs that had become stuck.  :annoyed:

Online Fjell

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2020, 05:48:47 pm »
Interesting walk today trying to avoid the crowds in the dales. 
After a rough walk I came to a gate with a private sign.  I knew I was on right to roam so I took the sign down. Through the gate a track came up from the left.  Railway type sleepers the width of the road was followed for about half a mile. Easy going but what about the habitat?
 
......
I couldn’t descend the stream anymore without leaving the right to roam.  I decided to Trespass crossIng 2 rough grazing pastures via gates to reach the road.  Thus trespassing over 2 fields.
I suppose I broke the law here, but only in one specific and limited way.  So it’s okay

There are huge numbers of private roads in the Dales, including in villages. Most of them are footpaths or bridleways, but you can’t drive on them by right - hence “private road” signs. The clue is “road”. Pretty much every “landrover track”. If it is on CRoW land you can obviously walk on them regardless.

In England trespass is not a criminal offence in itself, but it is associated with offences that involve trespass - generally refusing to leave when asked by police or court order. You can be sued for damage. If you do it a lot and cause problems you can get court orders against you. All of this is so tiresome and expensive that it is rare. Walking across fields is a zero consequence action that I have indulged in my whole life. The most someone can do is ask you to leave, and to be honest there is bugger all they can do if you take your time about it. Waving a gun will get them arrested. Fiddling with peoples stuff is escalating the situation for sure however. Messing with stock can lead to bad things, they take it personally. Up to you, people can lose it. If no-one knew you were there they might feed you to the pigs. I would think twice in Grisedale and Uldale for instance.

If you believe there is illegal wildlife killing going on then take pictures and report them to the police.
I am not sure Larson traps are long for this world, and are banned in other countries. If you catch the wrong birds and harm them, you could be in the shit.

Prince Charles hangs out at the lodge near Garsdale Head, or used to. It’s a secret.......

My grandfather owned a hill farm, which I lived on when I was little. Things are not what they were.

Offline caving_fox

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2020, 10:16:40 am »

In England trespass is not a criminal offence in itself, but it is associated with offences that involve trespass - generally refusing to leave when asked by police or court order. You can be sued for damage. If you do it a lot and cause problems you can get court orders against you. All of this is so tiresome and expensive that it is rare. Walking across fields is a zero consequence action that I have indulged in my whole life. The most someone can do is ask you to leave, and to be honest there is bugger all they can do if you take your time about it. Waving a gun will get them arrested. Fiddling with peoples stuff is escalating the situation for sure however. Messing with stock can lead to bad things, they take it personally. Up to you, people can lose it. If no-one knew you were there they might feed you to the pigs. I would think twice in Grisedale and Uldale for instance.


Re bolded bit. Yet. There's been another push to make it so https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/15/tresspass-trap-law-land-travelling-people-rights
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2020, 12:51:38 pm »

Online Fjell

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2020, 06:52:32 pm »
See also https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26761.msg327599#msg327599

It’s not going to happen. It’s just yet another hopeless attempt to control travellers (which always fails on police aversion to strongarm tactics and the refusal to pay fines or basically give a shit). The police have much bigger problems with some “travellers” than just squatting.

There is a ropey film called The Gentlemen out at the moment. Near the beginning there is a scene which explains why it is pretty much impossible to have a cannabis farm above ground in England. You get the idea if you watch it. All true. Voters, lots of them.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2020, 07:38:48 pm »

Offline Badlad

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2020, 09:17:23 am »
I took the advice of RB on the other Trespass thread and read 'the Book of Trespass' by Nick Hayes.  A fascinating yet disturbing read which I would recommend to anyone with an interest in the countryside.  Anyway a few facts given in the book on the very temporary occupants of these shooting estates...

Every year thirty-five million partridge and pheasant are released into the estates of England.  This is twice the biomass of the nation's wild birds.  Defra estimate half of these are bred in factory farms but whilst basic welfare regulation exist for farmed birds such as chickens, birds reared for sporting activities are exempt.

Grouse shooting is regarded as the 'formula one' of game sports.  England has only 15% of the total landmass of Britain devoted to grouse shooting but still manages to account for almost half of the 450,000 grouse shot each year.  This requires intensive 'farming' of the land and grouse bred in such numbers places their colonies vulnerable to infections that can wipe them out.  Thus the moors are littered with birdfeeders containing pellets of levamisole hydrocloride, a short term fix that last just 48 hours.  The record for the most grouse shot on a shoot in a single day is 2929.

Grouse can eat up to 50 grams of heather shoots per day.  So the productivity of the moors must be maximised by burning to encourage new growth.  A third of all grouse moors in England are covered in the rarest of habitats, the sphagnum moss and peat bogs.  Burning destroys the moss and dries out the peat, turning the carbon sinks into a carbon source. The damage done to these peatlands in England releases 260,000 tonnes of carbon back into the atmosphere each year, the equivalent emissions of 88,000 cars.

If anyone wishes to find out why this happens, or why landowners receive huge payments of public money for this land, or even how the ownership of these huge estates occurred in the first place then the book is for you.  Given a rave review by Robert Macfarland too.



Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2020, 09:22:12 am »
Although most grouse moors will not be affected by any new laws, as they are already access land.

Offline kay

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2020, 10:15:50 am »
England has only 15% of the total landmass of Britain devoted to grouse shooting

In other words, about twice the quoted figure for the proportion of land covered by houses. Don't know what point I'm making. Just seemed interesting.

Online Fjell

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2020, 10:51:00 am »
Moors can’t just be left. If you want to rewild them then someone is going to have to pay to reestablish a diverse ecosystem, it won’t happen on it’s own as has been shown in a few cases. Commercial timber is a non-starter - you might as well keep things as they are.

Short of a handy billionaire, then public funds will be required. Either you buy the things and do it (a new quango?) or pay enough to existing owners to get them to do it and restrict shooting to traditional undriven personal use (they might well go for this). The total net value of shooting in England after subsidy is probably no more than £50mln a year, so that gives you an idea of what it would take. It’s a pittance, but that is cash out of other priorities.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2020, 01:25:33 pm »
Maths needs some work - grouse have 550000 acres of England's 32 million, so about 1.7% of land use. About 10% of Scotland is.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2020, 01:44:26 pm »
Maths needs some work - grouse have 550000 acres of England's 32 million, so about 1.7% of land use. About 10% of Scotland is.

I think you've misread or misunderstood and in any case I am only quoting Nick Hayes. 

Quote
England has only 15% of the total landmass of Britain devoted to grouse shooting
.  I take that to be a percentage of the total landmass of Britain - which is devoted to grouse shooting.  I may have left out the 'which'.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2020, 01:59:51 pm »
It was Kay's maths that didn't work (but it was based on a misrepresentation of the figures).

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2020, 05:59:14 pm »
Grouse moors are managed purely for the production of grouse. Anything, plant or animal detrimental to the grouse is discouraged or eliminated.
It’s the rubbish that got to me on this particular walk, mostly to stock the area with partridges and pheasants.
We as tax payers give public subsidies to the tune of £84 million (Could be more now) to create these sheds and pens. I would like some tidying up to be done.
I decided that I would take advantage of the new rule.  You can now break the law in one specific way. I chose trespass.  I don’t think crows or stoats are ‘stock’.
Sure, I would ban grouse shooting if I could and get landowners to create a more diverse habitat. I might even give them £84 million to do it.
Meanwhile I have no qualms on cavers concentrating there litter on the useful placing of scaffolding and planks of wood at the entrance to digs or disturbing grouse rather than shooting them.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2020, 10:54:20 pm »
The £84 million is given as agricultural supplement, not because of the grouse shooting, with £12.5 million of that being in England (£56 per hectare). Certainly nothing to do with pheasant rearing.

Online 2xw

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2020, 11:18:55 pm »
Note that that "fact" about burning isn't quite accurate. It's detrimental but not for the reasons described. It doesn't always turn them into net carbon sources either. There's seemingly a trend of simplifying ecology by the current "pop sci" writers like this, that make such an effort to make simple messages that they verge on falsification.

I'm not sure why any of its relevant to trespass anyways: the vast majority of grouse moors are open access. Walking on most of them isn't an act of trespass.

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2020, 02:11:47 am »
Moors can’t just be left. If you want to rewild them then someone is going to have to pay to reestablish a diverse ecosystem, it won’t happen on it’s own as has been shown in a few cases.

Which cases are these? I'm very interested.

As ever, worrying about trespass laws is a waste of time. This is true even here in the US, where the bulk of land is privately owned, where there is no "right to roam" on private land (access is officially restricted even to much publicly owned land), and where trespass laws (depending on the state) are much more severe. Conscientious, considerate, discreet behavior and neighborliness circumsize Law in almost every case. In the event of a serious conflict I am confident that those same qualities will serve to minimize the damage, and thus comfortably and constantly trespass.

Offline Mark

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2020, 06:24:44 am »

Offline Badlad

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2020, 09:48:47 am »
Although this thread was titled 'trespass' the OP wrote about access roads, larson traps, blue barrels, stoat traps, pheasant pens and associated scrap.  Mostly all to do with the grouse shooting business.  I added a few quotes about pheasant and grouse shooting from a book I'd been reading to show the scale of the business.

The [mis]management of the grouse moors are also blamed for increased flooding in the valleys below.  Hayes claims that no one rejects the notion that burning the bog reduces its capability to hold water.  Apparently studies have found a direct correlation.  A petition to ban grouse hunting reached 100,000 signatures forcing a debate in parliament and the establishment of 'anti' groups such as Ban the Burn.

Grouse moors cover some very large areas of the countryside but the 'sport' only benefits a very small proportion of the population from a mainly very wealthy section of society.  The business isn't great for the millions of birds that get shot but it also takes a huge toll on the natural wildlife.  The methods of land management to support the business are questionable and may have detrimental effects on native flora.  Large subsidies of public money are paid to the grouse moor owners for sure.  I'm sure I know who benefits the most from this so they could at least keep the place tidy as Duck Ditch suggests.

How much of the Nick Hayes book is entirely accurate I can't say, but it does appear well researched.  The basic messages seem to hold up though.  Have a read
 :read:

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2020, 10:57:18 am »
The things he wrote about are for pheasant shoots, not grouse. They generally take place in different habitats & most pheasant shoots are not on public or access land.

Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2020, 04:59:13 pm »
Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

I don't quite understand that - what would happen if the moors were just abandoned to nature. No management plan, no tinkering, just left alone?

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Online 2xw

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2020, 05:49:51 pm »
Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

I don't quite understand that - what would happen if the moors were just abandoned to nature. No management plan, no tinkering, just left alone?

Chris.

They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

Offline JoshW

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2020, 07:59:13 pm »
Unfortunately the moors will probably require more in the way of subsidies to improve them, if they don't have the income from shoots.

I don't quite understand that - what would happen if the moors were just abandoned to nature. No management plan, no tinkering, just left alone?

Chris.

They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

genuine question out of interest, would more or less work be required to 'repair it' than is put in to maintain the moors for shooting etc.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2020, 08:28:02 pm »
They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

I'm going to play devils advocate here because I don't believe you.

Pretty much all the places I have ever seen that have been abandoned have seen a remarkable takeover by nature in very short order! The only place I can think of that has defied nature is Parys Mountain on Anglesey, and that is a whole lot different.

Surely the heather would grow until it is outcompeted by taller species etc, until it's forested again?

Is there an example of such a landscape being abandoned and it not recovering of its own accord?

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