Author Topic: Brexit... (Read 5416 times)

Pitlamp · « **Reply #50 on:** February 12, 2021, 12:23:13 pm »

Watching this discussion develop has been fascinating. The two camps still very much disagree on the wisdom of Brexit, yet it's all been very civil. Potholers aren't a bad lot really!

al · « **Reply #51 on:** February 12, 2021, 12:35:44 pm »

Quote from: mikem on February 12, 2021, 11:57:22 am

Although the main problem the planet faces is overpopulation...

The main problems facing us at the moment are covid (and all its future editions) and climate change - both are global existential issues which will only be dealt with by universal collaberation.

This was not a good time for things like Brexit; climate change / covid will make ATAD II (the real reason we brexited) totally irrelevant.

ChrisJC · « **Reply #52 on:** February 12, 2021, 12:41:14 pm »

Quote from: Alex on February 12, 2021, 12:02:29 pm

I agree re overpopulation, whether it's a symptom or not, it's definately our main issue now and is the root cause of climate change.

Well we will agree on that for sure! Overpopulation will for sure lead to an epic disaster. All this current 'saving the planet' nonsense is just like Nero - playing the fiddle while Rome burns (I might have got that wrong!). Whenever you read about some new approach to the environment, you can always achieve the same by reducing the population.

Quote from: Alex on February 12, 2021, 12:02:29 pm

Oh look, we have switched topics again lol. Good I think we have all said as much as there has to be said on the B word.

Ahahahaha, there will never be an end to the Brexit debate.

Chris.

mikem · « **Reply #53 on:** February 12, 2021, 12:51:11 pm »

Quote from: al on February 12, 2021, 12:35:44 pm

The main problems facing us at the moment are covid (and all its future editions) and climate change - both are global existential issues which will only be dealt with by universal collaberation.

& both are a consequence of overpopulation... (People have been predicting that for centuries)

al · « **Reply #54 on:** February 12, 2021, 01:01:56 pm »

Quote from: mikem on February 12, 2021, 12:51:11 pm

Quote from: al on February 12, 2021, 12:35:44 pm
The main problems facing us at the moment are covid (and all its future editions) and climate change - both are global existential issues which will only be dealt with by universal collaberation.
& both are a consequence of overpopulation... (People have been predicting that for centuries)

Neither is necessarily the result of overpopulation, despite your prediction.

pwhole · « **Reply #55 on:** February 12, 2021, 01:11:25 pm »

Drastically improving living standards, education and income automatically reduces overpopulation, wherever it happens. We seem overpopulated, but most of the country is empty space with the majority clustered in already-existing urban centres. At the extremes, it's too much and causes population replacement decline. There is a magic number in the middle that allows stable, sustainable population replacement (or even 'managed' decline to improve the quality of life per individual). Money is easily the best contraceptive, as most birth rates are directly proportional to income and personal safety/security/wellbeing. Johnnies aren't cheap if you're shagging every night due to the lack of quality entertainment.

But that means giving the poor parts of the world a LOT of money, soon. Or giving them the means to make their own money - soon. Otherwise they'll keep having lots of babies and wanting to move here.

Down and beyond · « **Reply #56 on:** February 12, 2021, 01:19:45 pm »

I no very little about this have always heard about it but never followed it so a interesting read !

Is their really a solution though ? Would it be for a single country the solution as law/government brought in .

or a worldwide joint solution where all countries said right from now on 2 kids per family and no kids before 18!

I no most British now days would struggle with the later one .

JoshW · « **Reply #57 on:** February 12, 2021, 01:38:44 pm »

Quote from: Down and beyond on February 12, 2021, 01:19:45 pm

I no very little about this have always heard about it but never followed it so a interesting read !

Is their really a solution though ? Would it be for a single country the solution as law/government brought in .

or a worldwide joint solution where all countries said right from now on 2 kids per family and no kids before 18!
I no most British now days would struggle with the later one .

If you read pwholes comment above yours, you’ll get a good summary of the situation.

The problem with sticking in controls over number of children is that you end up treating the symptom rather than actually looking at the root cause. You need to see the reasons why developing countries populations are increasing and look to solve that, otherwise you’ll make their situation worse.

pwhole · « **Reply #58 on:** February 12, 2021, 01:39:07 pm »

This is a good one to start, though it's by no means a 'proof', just a very convincing argument - and it's an easy read too - one evening if you get stuck in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factfulness:_Ten_Reasons_We%27re_Wrong_About_the_World_%E2%80%93_and_Why_Things_Are_Better_Than_You_Think

The designer, mathematician and (possibly) philosopher R. Buckminster Fuller spent decades arguing that the world was in a much better state than it thinks it is - his book Critical Path is stunning in its simplicity - I would argue some of his contentions have since been 'proven'. He also came up with the best, most accurate map of the world, ever - I have the A0 satellite version of this on the wall above my monitor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_map

And here's why it's better in so many ways than other map projections:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_map#/media/File:World_map_of_prehistoric_human_migrations.jpg

Brains · « **Reply #59 on:** February 12, 2021, 01:54:50 pm »

More than words...

PeteHall · « **Reply #60 on:** February 12, 2021, 02:04:55 pm »

Leaving aside the obvious ethical problems of letting a state decide who can have a baby...

There are real problems with reduced fertility rates, such as ending up with a reduced working population to care for an increasing elderly population (which is only getting older due to better healthcare).

Many countries are already struggling with a decreasing population, eg: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-53424726

While some of these countries are actively trying to encourage people to have more kids, others suggest immigration from countries with higher fertility is a better solution, but that has its own problems.

Those countries also need their own working populations to support their own economies and elderly. We cannot expect that we will always have a supply of willing immigrants queuing up to do the work that we either don't want to do, or are incapable of doing. As African countries develop, why would people leave to get a job cleaning up old white people in Europe who've soiled themselves again, when they could stay home and get a much better job???

This is something that we will see in our lifetimes and I don't look forward to it.

pwhole · « **Reply #61 on:** February 12, 2021, 02:21:54 pm »

That can all be stopped by us having lots more babies, of course - but I gather you've done your bit. I'm the one who should be ashamed, saving my sperm for some sort of ideal situation. But I genuinely thought we'd be on the moon by now

Down and beyond · « **Reply #62 on:** February 12, 2021, 02:25:54 pm »

Gosh around here their ent no shortage of kids all these young ones now days get pregnant at a party never see the dad again have the kid free house it’s a real mess

Brains · « **Reply #63 on:** February 12, 2021, 02:44:29 pm »

We have shot ourselves in the foot, and now the right whingers complain they got what they wanted... apart from the ones that wanted it even more extreme! What for? The sovereignty we already had? Fewer immigrants? An empire we no longer have? Oh sorry - the Murdoch media empire wants your money in the pockets of the billionaires, and not to have to pay taxes. The corrupt government is doing that by the billions, together with possibly the worst COVID response in the world - and they have had some stiff competition there

Alex · « **Reply #64 on:** February 12, 2021, 02:44:58 pm »

The ageing population is only a temporary problem though, eventually they will die and there will be more of a balance between the old and the new. It's also only a problem as that means they get out competed by other countries, as basically people = money.

So only a global solution to this will solve it, increase wealth in poorer countries to compensate/in exchange for decreased fertility.

This is why I like things like the EU, because we can only solve these problems together, not as separate entities. See topic back on track!

All this individualism only supporting your own country will eventually lead to man's demise. Regardless, we will solve the population problem but it will be through war famine and the other 2 horses! Hopefully this won't wipe us out entirely but we will be back to the stone age.

Unless we take up space travel in a big way and start spreading out.

Down and beyond · « **Reply #65 on:** February 12, 2021, 02:57:59 pm »

Ya lots of negative I see draws a lot of attention it’s why I stay away from social websites that ent mines and caves is not good fun gets people very depressed it turns not sociable . Many of them people also say covid is not real ?

13.5million people have been vaccinated so far and people say are government is crap and couldn’t run a corner shop don’t think so

mikem · « **Reply #66 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:06:16 pm »

Vaccination is a no brainer, hardly a policy decision.

Quote from: al on February 12, 2021, 01:01:56 pm

Neither is necessarily the result of overpopulation, despite your prediction.

It's not a guaranteed outcome, but both become more likely - it's why other animals have limiting factors outside their control.

royfellows · « **Reply #67 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:32:12 pm »

Quote from: Down and beyond on February 12, 2021, 02:57:59 pm

13.5million people have been vaccinated so far and people say are government is crap and couldn’t run a corner shop don’t think so

Priceless.

mikem · « **Reply #68 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:33:19 pm »

The only way the number of pensioners is going to decrease is by increasing the retirement age.

20% of the population are under 18, another 20% are over 65, c.5% are in further education (10 years ago it was somewhat higher), unemployment is also about 5% - so less than half the population are already covering majority of tax bill - which is escalating rapidly with the cost of Brexit & covid...

Robert Scott · « **Reply #69 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:42:05 pm »

I'll point out that being over 65 does not mean you do not pay income tax.

royfellows · « **Reply #70 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:46:35 pm »

Quote from: Robert Scott on February 12, 2021, 03:42:05 pm

I'll point out that being over 65 does not mean you do not pay income tax.

Correct. All income is taxable.

RobinGriffiths · « **Reply #71 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:53:27 pm »

Much as it pains me me to insert a link to a Sun article, here's an interesting Trucker's Diary. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13971620/covid-checks-red-tape-eu-hell-for-lorry-drivers/

Alex · « **Reply #72 on:** February 12, 2021, 04:00:01 pm »

The vaccinations is the only thing they got right (sort of) as it turns out the vaccine may not actually help, if the new strains spread. They got one thing right so does that mean we should forgive them now for all the past mistakes 110+k deaths and extra lock-downs because of earlier cockups?

Should we forgive, contracts awarded to best mates, often costing us the tax payer a lot more money, playing golf rather than attending meetings and generally not taking it seriously, not closing borders etc ect. I am sure Brains could find lots of memes for that too

I agree with you on one thing though, going down a mine sand caves certainly does take your mind off of this shits-show, if that's what you are referring to, though I am not clear what your point is "Down and below" on that. I can't wait until I can hide down a cave, I might move there!

Duck ditch · « **Reply #73 on:** February 12, 2021, 04:04:35 pm »

The best way to slow population growth is to educate women. Actually I think it’s working as more and more countries can afford and are able and willing to educate girls. Religion is the main blocker to achieving this. Followed by poverty.

Alex · « **Reply #74 on:** February 12, 2021, 04:08:21 pm »

Educating a 100% of your population is a win-win no matter how you look at it. I agree the sooner we can get rid of religion the better, it served it's purpose, other than making us not think our entire existence is pointless as you would just completely cease to exist if you die... okay, I need a bible stat!