Author Topic: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc  (Read 3678 times)

Offline David Rose

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2021, 12:50:11 pm »
Why would you bother? Sounds like a waste of time and effort to me.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2021, 03:33:55 pm »
Going tonight but please note that I was quoting quotes so the quote you quoted was not verbatim from me. You may have mis quoted my quote. I did say that I was " on the fence ". :halo:

Offline Duncan Price

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2021, 03:52:56 pm »
One question that crossed my mind was why did mrodoc use Descent to publish his opinion rather than this forum? After all, he is a regular and well-respected member here.

When I saw it I thought that it reflects the editorial bias against CROW (as well as the Ogof Boring single entrance policy extolled by the same rag).  I have read the article and pretty much came to the same conclusions that others have reached - its simply peddling the the same old arguments with the added insult of accusing those trying to get caving covered by CROW of wasting their time and BCA's money.

It was only one page out of a very good issue.

Offline BradW

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2021, 03:55:34 pm »
One question that crossed my mind was why did mrodoc use Descent to publish his opinion rather than this forum? After all, he is a regular and well-respected member here.

When I saw it I thought that it reflects the editorial bias against CROW (as well as the Ogof Boring single entrance policy extolled by the same rag).  I have read the article and pretty much came to the same conclusions that others have reached - its simply peddling the the same old arguments with the added insult of accusing those trying to get caving covered by CROW of wasting their time and BCA's money.

It was only one page out of a very good issue.
Well, there is the CRoW update from David on Page 4, which at least gives the current situation in a factual manner.

Offline David Rose

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2021, 04:20:00 pm »
Old Ruminator, you are being disingenuous. This is your original post:

"In the latest issue received today. I think this fairly sums up the antipathy felt by many cavers in the south to CROW ( sic ) and the continuing waste of time and effort pursing it."

There is nothing there to indicate you are merely "quoting" others, and that this his not your view. The plain and ordinary meaning of this statement is that you think that those of us who have worked hard for almost two years on a voluntary basis to do what we can to pursue a BCA policy have been engaged on a "continuing waste of time and effort".

I can't imagine why you can't see that. Of course, you could apologise. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

Offline BradW

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2021, 04:59:38 pm »
I took what OR said in explanation in good faith, and now David has pointed it out, I can see that perhaps the misunderstanding is simply down to poor grammar. I suspect OR means that it's the many cavers in the south that consider it all a waste of time and effort. It would be a shame if a simple mistake that only needs a red mark in the homework book led to a falling out and more division.

Offline mikem

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2021, 06:11:50 pm »
It can be read either way

Offline Ed

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2021, 07:06:39 pm »
I take that those southern cavers that are anti CROW or think it's a waste of time and money will stay away from the Dales where access has improved since the CROW campaign.

Obviously, they wouldn't want to be seen as empire building hypocrites.

Offline mikem

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2021, 07:35:57 pm »
Far too much bollox spouted on both sides

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2021, 08:27:18 pm »
I take that those southern cavers that are anti CROW or think it's a waste of time and money will stay away from the Dales where access has improved since the CROW campaign.

Obviously, they wouldn't want to be seen as empire building hypocrites.
On the occasions I have visited the Dales over the last 50 years I have never had an issue with access. That is what is puzzling me!

Offline droid

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2021, 08:34:36 pm »


I'm told Mrdoc is thinking of becoming the BCA P&I officer. Maybe he will discover that if does take on this important role it would be sensible to maintain amicable relations with his colleagues, such as the BCA newsletter editor. Oh! Goodness! That would be me!

 

For crying out loud.

Playground stuff
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline badger

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2021, 08:41:14 pm »
i think this is all getting blown way out of proportion, those opposed to crow are allowed their opinion, those opposed to Brexit are allowed their opinion, but here we are the majority voted to leave Europe, we have, the majority of British cavers voted for BCA to campaign for crow. part of that process was always going to be a court case. so here we are. DR has done an incredible amount of work towards that case, irrelevant whether we think its good value or waste of money. the mandate was given by the membership, the council has done what it was asked to do.
As for decent magazine I have seen all sorts of point of views over the years published, I don't think the editors have ever been biased on content regardless to personal views.
I personally like Chris & Judith doesn't mean I agree with their point of view, same as I like people who have a different opinion to me over crow, as those that have a different opinion over Brexit

Offline darren

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2021, 10:06:36 pm »
People seem to be saying once something has been voted on everyone needs to fall in behind the result and never discuss it again.

Looks like we're stuck with the incompetent Conservative government foe ever.
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Online Speleofish

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2021, 10:55:27 pm »
This is really depressing. I don't know any of the protagonists but all of them are respected members of the caving community, have done great things and I have enjoyed reading about their activities over the last few years.

I haven't seen the article in question and I struggle with the various arguments. However, if the caving community wants to improve access to holes in the ground, it should surely present a united front. This argument takes us backwards, not forwards. 

Offline badger

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2021, 11:51:42 pm »
People seem to be saying once something has been voted on everyone needs to fall in behind the result and never discuss it again.

Looks like we're stuck with the incompetent Conservative government foe ever.

I am fairly certain which ever party we have in government would be incompetent, the only thing that changes with governments is the level of incompetency

Offline Badlad

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2021, 10:46:15 am »
.......
On the occasions I have visited the Dales over the last 50 years I have never had an issue with access. That is what is puzzling me!

You are not alone.  It puzzles a number of people, however, in the main they are all people well connected within caving circles, like you are yourself.  This isn't true for everybody and even well connected cavers admit that the old permit systems were very inflexible to last minute changes due to weather conditions, etc.  It has been a fact, that some groups of cavers, perhaps not as well connected or not from within the caving community bubble, have been disadvantaged to the point of giving up by previous access systems.  That is why CNCC mandated me to improve access arrangements across the Dales when I was access officer.  I can assure you that in those negotiations the BCA CRoW campaign and legal opinion were instrumental in changing the views of the landowners and their agents for the better and helped immensely with improving the outcomes that many cavers now enjoy.  There is still more work to do and further improvements to be made of course.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2021, 11:23:32 am »
I shan't add any more to this because as usual it has deteriorated into an us and them argument with those who shout the loudest holding sway.

 "I can't imagine why you can't see that. Of course, you could apologise. But I'm not holding my breath." This a quote from our  "wordsmith " friend. I am sorry I wont be saying sorry for my intro. here though I must be more careful about my grammar. A classic case of " shoot the messenger " from my point of view. Its a real shame that the forum just ends up with so many conflicting political views rather than discussing caving in a more practical sense. Photos which I have almost given up on. Digs which seldom get mentioned here and trip reports. Its a lot about Committees and points of view rather than caving.

One final personal observation of mine. Stated here that %23 of BCA members voted " for ". Hardly an overwhelming mandate in my view.

Well I went caving last night despite feeling unwell . This week George Clooney stated that anything that loses him a minute of sleep is not worth the effort. For a similiar reason I will now give the forum a break from my photos and ramblings.
 

Offline Badlad

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2021, 11:52:22 am »
OR (and mrodoc).  I do hope you are not including my two posts in your sweeping statement.  I have tried to give you a valid example of where the BCA CRoW campaign has been beneficial already.  I also tried to answer mrodoc's question about caving in the north.  I thought i was quite qualified on both counts having been involved as a volunteer on both the CRoW campaign and with northern access.  The original opinion and points made in Descent are of course valid, but you yourself started this thread on them, you must have expected some of those views to be challenged.   :confused:

Anyway, I guess the settlement, equally, will be viewed very differently too

Offline Cosmo Smallpiece

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2021, 11:55:57 am »
I wouldn't get too annoyed with the confusion around your original post. This quote issue happened on the "boosterism" thread recently....

It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

As a newbie I am trying to understand the issues being discussed. I would like to hear the counter argument in layman's terms. The threads on CRoW often descend into rows without any clarity for us outsiders.

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2021, 12:12:01 pm »
I wouldn't get too annoyed with the confusion around your original post. This quote issue happened on the "boosterism" thread recently....

It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

As a newbie I am trying to understand the issues being discussed. I would like to hear the counter argument in layman's terms. The threads on CRoW often descend into rows without any clarity for us outsiders.

This isn't probably what you want to hear, and I'm definitely not being dismissive*; a quick search will provide you with hours (even days!) of a certain type of fun  ;) as you plough through what were some pretty heated exchanges.

*Nothing will have changed with the two camps pretty much still polarised, and I know I for one don't have the energy nor inclination to start down that road again (practically, the 'discussion' wouldn't be an easy thing to summarise either).
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2021, 12:23:31 pm »
.......
On the occasions I have visited the Dales over the last 50 years I have never had an issue with access. That is what is puzzling me!

You are not alone.  It puzzles a number of people, however, in the main they are all people well connected within caving circles, like you are yourself.  This isn't true for everybody and even well connected cavers admit that the old permit systems were very inflexible to last minute changes due to weather conditions, etc.  It has been a fact, that some groups of cavers, perhaps not as well connected or not from within the caving community bubble, have been disadvantaged to the point of giving up by previous access systems.  That is why CNCC mandated me to improve access arrangements across the Dales when I was access officer.  I can assure you that in those negotiations the BCA CRoW campaign and legal opinion were instrumental in changing the views of the landowners and their agents for the better and helped immensely with improving the outcomes that many cavers now enjoy.  There is still more work to do and further improvements to be made of course.

This is an important thing to recognise. The old Dales system was inflexible. If you wanted to stay on the right side of the agreements but the cave you had waited ages to receive a permit for, was prone to inclement weather on the day of your visit you would often be faced with either visiting the same old other cave yet again, or pirate access elsewhere and have that nagging feeling that this could land up as someone else's problem if you got found out. Now I can check (on my phone) the excellent CNCC website, cancel my permit and do the right thing and look for valid alternatives.

Also ridiculous was the notion that on certain times of the year I could walk on open access land right to a cave entrance but to proceed any further as a caver was prohibited because 'out of season'! Madness.

As it stands now it's dead simple thanks to the hard work of the volunteers.  :kiss2:

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Oceanrower

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2021, 12:35:49 pm »
Snip

Its a real shame that the forum just ends up with so many conflicting political views rather than discussing caving in a more practical sense. Photos which I have almost given up on. Digs which seldom get mentioned here and trip reports. Its a lot about Committees and points of view rather than caving.

/snip

I can’t help feeling this is a little rich seeing as you started this thread knowing, let’s be honest, exactly how it would go…

Online AR

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2021, 12:39:41 pm »

One final personal observation of mine. Stated here that %23 of BCA members voted " for ". Hardly an overwhelming mandate in my view.


That was on a response rate from the membership of about a third, which is similar to the turnout for last week's by-election, and for that matter, your average council election has a lower still turnout. Of those who voted, the vote was around 2-1 in favour. I do not for one moment wish to speculate on the motivation (or lack thereof) of those who didn't return a vote, or what their feelings on the matter were, but the fact remains that of those eligible to cast a vote on the matter who took the trouble to do so, a very clear majority wanted the BCA to pursue the matter of CRoW.
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2021, 12:50:07 pm »
I shan't add any more to this because as usual it has deteriorated into an us and them argument with those who shout the loudest holding sway.

To be fair the 'loudest' voice it could fairly be said was mrodoc who had his piece published in Descent. The opinion hasn't exactly been cancelled.

"I can't imagine why you can't see that. Of course, you could apologise. But I'm not holding my breath." This a quote from our  "wordsmith " friend. I am sorry I wont be saying sorry for my intro. here though I must be more careful about my grammar. A classic case of " shoot the messenger " from my point of view. Its a real shame that the forum just ends up with so many conflicting political views...

There's an apparent contradiction here surely? mrodoc for want of a better expression, poked the nest with a big stick. For what reason? I'm not really sure because it actually didn't, to my mind, add anything new to the debate. You yourself entered into the fray and didn't like David's response or tone (David was probably a bit robust but to be fair to him his work has been criticised, in print, as a waste of time and effort...). The contradiction appears to be, you think it's a shame that the forum becomes polarised. But at the same time you're doing your best to aid and abet that division with statements like the one below - "hardly an overwhelming mandate".


..rather than discussing caving in a more practical sense. Photos which I have almost given up on. Digs which seldom get mentioned here and trip reports. Its a lot about Committees and points of view rather than caving.

I mean this respectfully; stop moaning about the state of the forum (sum of the parts etc.) and get your stuff posted!  It might make a welcome distraction for us all!  :)



One final personal observation of mine. Stated here that %23 of BCA members voted " for ". Hardly an overwhelming mandate in my view.

Well I went caving last night despite feeling unwell . This week George Clooney stated that anything that loses him a minute of sleep is not worth the effort. For a similiar reason I will now give the forum a break from my photos and ramblings.

Be honest, mrodoc and yourself are not fans of BCA doing its CRoW thing. We know that, we get it. But take your own advice, don't lose any sleep over it. It's been explained many times that BCA aren't looking to chuck the baby out with the bath-water. Caves that CRoW might effect but require, on balance, extra protection it can be administered on a case by case basis. Literally, apart from some admin. nothing much will change in those areas that people are concerned about.

I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline David Rose

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Re: Descent Article re CROW by Mr O 'Doc
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2021, 12:52:31 pm »
This is just hilarious. Old Ruminator starts a thread that slags off people have done a vast amount of voluntary work for the BCA with a lot more still to do and then retires hurt because he gets some pushback.

PATHETIC.


 

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