Poll

will you be buying a new copy of Caves of the Peak District

yes
134 (97.1%)
no
4 (2.9%)

Total Members Voted: 138

Author Topic: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook  (Read 19684 times)

Offline Iain Barker

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New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« on: August 08, 2009, 02:13:18 pm »
Hi all,

well, as you're all aware it's eighteen years since the last edition came out and even if you are lucky enough to get hold of a copy it is now very much out of date.

John Beck and myself have spent the last (four?!) years editing a new edition, bigger, more surveys, photo's, better in every way. The snag is that Dalesman who did virtually all the "official" caving guides doesn't want anything to do with caving anymore. What with the current economic crises causing many publishers to sit on thier hands and wait for improvement, finding a good new publisher for the book has been an imense task. We now have one interested, Francis Lincoln. This company publishes the Wainwright walking guides and the Pouchers. That's a good enough track record for me. This will be new ground for Francis Lincoln's if they do decide to produce it; they have never done a caving guide before.

Now here's the rub; How do I convince this company that there is a demand for a new edition of Caves of the Peak District? Is it needed - will it sell?

Over to you - post your comments please.
Caves are where you find 'em!

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2009, 02:35:46 pm »
Have you considered direct print on demand - no third party issues, no stock and you get to charge whatever price you feel the market will stand and get to keep the proceeds?

http://www.lulu.com/

Offline Iain Barker

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2009, 03:27:34 pm »
Yes, we looked into those guys and decided it would have to be a last resort. Basically it seems to be an updated vesion of vanity publishing.
And of course, you have to find storage, organise uk-wide distribution and all the rest. I don't think you even get the services of an editor to pass a fresh pair of eyes over your product.
Caves are where you find 'em!

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 03:33:01 pm »
Pretty much on the nail, there, Ian, but it does have the advantage that you don't have to take any chances with print runs, other than to best guess the initial demand for the book and organise your own distribution but that wouldn't be too hard.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2009, 04:01:42 pm »
I have used lulu for several years now. Of late they have had an appalling stretch of dreadful customer service. They have a users' forum which is pretty much left alone by lulu and has some interesting threads on it. I have decided to slowly move away from lulu. This will take some time, and there will still be things I want to do through them. Yes, there are 'vanity publishers' on there. If I tell you I have ordered some 1000 copies of my own books, 1000 on behalf of a mining trust, and used them for our club journal without too much trouble, you can see that I have made reasonably good use of them.

I am eyeing up a UK printer (not a publisher) for small print runs - I will remain the publisher, and merely upload PDFs to them for printing. In today's world it is very easy to publish in your own right without a huge commitment.

For my existing books, I have had a quote for a print run as low as 50, and got a good price. They offer A5 and A4 only, but the paper quality seems a lot better than Lulu offer (although the order of 1000 was good quality - Snailbeach Lead Mine by Shropshire Mines Trust, if you know it).

The printer is www.inkylittlefingers.co.uk, and they will send a good sample pack free of charge so you can make a judgement on the quality of the paper and printing they offer. I have not yet placed an order with them, but will be doing so in the next few months. As yet, I cannot write from experience, but on the whole so far I like what I have seen.


If the publishing side of things seems a bit daunting, PM me and I'll fill you in with more details.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2009, 04:13:12 pm »
Who were the publishers of Not for the Faint Hearted?
I am pretty sure the demand for that would have been significantly less...yet I was literally bowled over by the quality of production...its a delight to own and miles ahead of any of the regional guidebooks I own.

Offline owd git

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2009, 04:50:24 pm »
have you contacted dave mitchell @ scarthin books ? he has some experifnce in publishing . he also has a hankering for the odd mine / cave in the past, and maintains keenly interested. just a thought, may prove fruitfull. i'll nip round and sow the seed of an idea if you all,(all!) show interest on line it would show what interest there is.good luck. p.s. i came across apostin of 'a new cave' winster way a while ago, any news? thanks o g 
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Offline graham

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2009, 05:43:20 pm »
With the best will in the world, demand for these kind of books will never match that of the latest Dan Brown. There is probably quite a sound commercial reason why UK caving guides don't get reprinted very often these days (Mendip Underground 1999, CoPD 1991, Northern Caves 1821) but, on the other hand I know that the Wexses are very happy with the response to the Swildon's book & the UBSS have covered their costs & more from CoCCSG. I would reckon that with a little research to estimate what the demand over, say, five years might be and a little work to ensure that the format is what cavers in that area are looking for then a self-publishing job by an appropriate body of Derbyshire cavers should at least cover costs, if not make a profit.
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 06:19:14 pm »
I just ran up a quick online quote

Quantity 50

Price  £213.18   

This is for the highest quality cover / pages available on the online calculator.

200 page A5 perfect bound books.
300gsm covers printed full colour outside, BLANK inside with no laminate.
120gsm bright white inner pages printed black and white throughout with no bleeds.
PDF proof.
Despatched 5 working days after you approve your proof.
Free delivery to a standard UK Mainland address.
VAT not included (booklets are normally zero rated).
Paper is smooth white matt and FSC approved. 

They also do coil bound volumes, which might be better for a field guide?

 Quantity 50

 Price  £221.72   
 
 THESE PRICES ARE FOR:-
A5 sized wire bound documents.
Bound on the long edge.
Black coloured wires.
Front cover printed in full colour outside, blank inside on 300 gsm paper.
Front cover
Clear protector sheet on the front (acetate).
Rear Cover printed in full colour outside, blank inside on 300 gsm paper.
Inner pages printed on 120 gsm paper.
0 color pages.
200 B/W pages.
Inside pages not printed to the edge (bled).
PDF proof.
Despatched 7 working days after you approve your proof.
Free delivery to a standard UK Mainland address.
This item has been zero rated for VAT as it is a bound document.
Paper is smooth white matt and FSC approved.
 
 

Offline Brains

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2009, 07:24:19 pm »
I have the "current" CoPD and the one before it, in a tasteful faded pink cover! I would certainly buy another edition - a decent book is so much better for pawing at in the pub and finding overlooked gems to visit. Do you want a count of purchasers? Put me down for a copy please!

Offline Iain Barker

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2009, 08:04:04 pm »
Cheers Brains, that's what I want to hear.
Caves are where you find 'em!

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2009, 08:46:42 pm »
Sorry I can`t suggest an instant alternative to the publisher you have spent so much time wooing. I hate to seem unhelpful! But I do guarantee to buy a copy of your book from whichever publisher you eventually use.

Offline AndyF

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2009, 09:14:04 pm »
Id agree with the comment of "why need a publisher"...

The outlets for this book are small in number (caving/outdoor shops/tourist info etc.) you probably know them already, so it doesn't need distribution in the normal sense

The up front costs of printing are relatively low these days.

You could probably set up a paypal order in advance, get a discount sort of thing. Once a certain level is reached, then go to print on that basis.

Do you know the print run of the last CopD???

I'll certainly be buying a copy BTW!
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2009, 09:41:20 pm »
Add me to the list too.

If you publish yourself, rather than through a third party, and you want the book to have an ISBN, you will need to purchase this. The more you buy, the cheaper they are. I bought 10 for £100. A single one costs over £30 I seem to recall. If it doesn't have an ISBN you might find it more difficult to sell through book shops. (local books shelves of Waterstones, for example). Mike Moore will sell anything, though, ISBN or not.

Offline Armchair

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2009, 09:43:28 pm »
If funding allows, don't even think about skimping on production: a quality book is a quality book, especially after an eighteen year gap. Keep the size of the run realistic with an option for reprinting in the contract; Lincoln's sound perfect. That's four sold, by the way.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2009, 09:55:28 pm »
I agree about the quality. Small print runs do not equate to low quality. Digital printing methods have come on leaps and bounds in recent years. Offset litho is still cheaper for large runs, but it is no longer the only option for quality. A digital printer does not need an option for a second print run. Provided you have kept the PDF file safe, all you have to do is send it a second time for a second batch, as good and as cheap as the first batch.

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2009, 07:11:47 am »
I'll have 1 and I can expect another 8 - 10 sales from my centre alone, not to mention others in the Darkside. Add to that all the other professional cavers in the area with more than just a proffesional interest....

Offline Big Jim

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2009, 08:26:04 am »
Everyone wants one - we're sat here twiddlin our thumbs waiting.... :sleeping:.

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2009, 09:20:49 am »
I cant offer any advice on the matter but speaking as just an occasional caver Ive been looking forward to my copy for ages.
Seems a bit short sighted of dalesman who must have made a few quid out of cavers over the years.
You've probably got a best seller on your hands there  ;D

Put me down for one

rocky

Offline owd git

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2009, 09:52:11 am »
eyup iain, re- earlier post. dave mitchell on hol's now, try in weeks time, he does publish a limited amount via scarthin books, and is a mine of information on too many topics to be overlooked cheers and good luck. o g
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Offline SamT

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2009, 09:56:21 am »
 :thumbsup:
I'll certainly be buying one

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2009, 11:00:12 am »
'course I'll be buying one - I never even paused to think twice.

I'd like to bet that many cavers have no idea just how much effort and work goes into getting it all together. That book will contain all the assimilated information arising from many generations of exploratory cavers. COPD is also a winner because it includes loads of useful references as well. Whatever it costs it will be extremely good value.

My thanks to those who have been working on this project. Charge what you like as far as I'm concerned.

Offline rhychydwr1

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2009, 02:00:05 pm »
The following have published similar books in the past: Gomer, Lolfa, Cordee.

Offline paul

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2009, 04:22:58 pm »
Since second-hand "Caves of the Peak District" have been selling on eBay for £30 to £40, there must still be a reasonable demsnd for them. I well of course be buying one as soon as it is ready.
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Offline Rob

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Re: New Caves of the Peak District guidebook
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2009, 11:05:10 am »
Yes please, definitely. And i second Pitlamp's point of "charge what you like", it's a must buy situation! I've been derbyshire caving 6 years and have been waiting for the new release before buying a COPD...
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