Author Topic: Moorhouse is back!  (Read 39317 times)

Offline bubba

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #125 on: November 21, 2009, 08:16:00 pm »
I really don't think you can discredit his post on that forum, it should be taken 100% seriously.
I would take his post on the other forum more seriously if it didn't talk about "during a rescue", "as a team leader", etc as we know this wasn't the case.

He may well have been suicidal and that's not something that any of us can dispute nor is something that should be ridiculed. I feel that it's not really an avenue that we should explore as it's really none of our business.

The only thing that I would say is that his apparently fragile mental state is perhaps even more of a reason for him not to be leading parties of novices into hazardous environments.

I would not comment of Moorehouse's ability,activities or state of mind, to do so could leave me open to litigation. Because I have not meet him & am not in a position to form a judgment.
I can only speak for myself but the only comment that I have made is that he has lied about belonging to rescue organisations. Surely whether you've met him or not is irrelevant?

The administrates can not hide behind "a clause" in the registration as this could be challenged. They do have a responsibility.
I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm just making it clear that I provide the software and the database, the posts/opinions/etc of users are their own. I/we moderate anything that we believe crosses the line of acceptability.  The last time I took legal advice on a similar matter then I was reassured that the forum could not be prosecuted. If you are a lawyer, or know a lawyer that specialises in internet law then it would be good to clarify such issues.

Finally, this kind of pillorying of another human being is not acceptable, let have some decency.
The issue here is that this guy is taking novices into hazardous situations without the expertise to back it up. The folly of this has been demonstrated in the past as there was a very real accident in Giants.

You may see it as "pillorying" but I believe it's important that this person's activities receive publicity in the hope that others may see it and he's not allowed to gain access to leadership of parties of unwitting novices in the future.

What's more important, not hurting one guy's feelings or preventing people from getting killed in a cave?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 08:25:06 pm by bubba »
=:blubba:=

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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #126 on: November 21, 2009, 08:58:15 pm »
Messing with people's heads is a very dangerous thing to do. Just as irresponsible as leading innocent novices into dangerous situations, because both can easily lead to physical harm, and none of us want that I hope.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 09:07:30 pm by Peter Burgess »

Offline bubba

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2009, 09:49:37 pm »

Who's messing with his head?

So what should we do? Just leave him to it?
=:blubba:=

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Stoneyman 1

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2009, 11:08:59 pm »
Bubba, I have read your last 2 posts. Your response to mine was balanced and I would not disagree with anything you said in that post.

I can not advise you; disclaimers do not absolve administrators of responsibility, its all about whether you acted responsibly / negligently in allowing the posts. Lets all hope this is never challenged in relationship to this tread.

David & Peter are right in what they say, heed David, he has much experience in that area.

Re your second post: To answer the question "what should we do".  If you & others feel so strongly about this man activities take some "advise" as to how he might be "called off" & by whom. It will not be achieved by this thread, because it will not reach his "target market", joe public. So it serves no purpose other then allowing people to vent their feeling about his activities.
Some of the comments have crossed over what is acceptable & decent to say about another person. This does not show the individuals, the forum or Derbyshire caving in a good light.

If you & others really feel strongly that this man is dangerous, find some constructive way to stop him. BUT please do it privately, not in the public domain.


Offline Bushman

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2009, 11:21:17 pm »
Quote from: bubba
...

What is a bannable offence?
I think we all know what is and what isn't acceptable on this forum but for the benefits of new or recent users.

    * Trolling and malicious hijacking of topics.
    * Personal insults/attacks/threats - we're all adults, keep it civil.
    * Hatred: Sexism/Racism/etc - most of us know what is and isn't acceptable and what is and isn't real hatred.

...
Erm we not following rules anymore?
Remember, it only hurts for a bit...

Offline bubba

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2009, 11:32:49 pm »
Erm we not following rules anymore?
What are you talking about? Where is any kind of serious personal insult, attack or threat?

If you don't like this topic then don't keep coming back and reading it.
=:blubba:=

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Offline Bushman

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2009, 11:39:36 pm »
...Where is any kind of serious personal insult, attack or threat?...
Have you read any of this topic? The whole thing is personal attack.
If you don't like this topic then don't keep coming back and reading it.
No. This topic is not doing Derbyshire cavers any good at all and needs stopping.
Remember, it only hurts for a bit...

Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #132 on: November 21, 2009, 11:42:21 pm »
There was a 'lock this thread' request a few days ago. I've been away since then and have only just had a chance to read recent posts. I was a bit queasy about the way things were going when I posted my previous response, and had my initial doubts re-confirmed when catching up. I don't know this guy, will probably never meet him, but it isn't on to hatchet job someone on a public forum like this. If someone has any reason to think he's a risk to himself or others, then presumably there's someone in 'authority' who can be approached.


Robin

Offline bubba

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #133 on: November 21, 2009, 11:48:46 pm »
It will not be achieved by this thread, because it will not reach his "target market", joe public.
I absolutely disagree. This guy was originally brought to light on these forums in 2004. Since then I've had quite a few people contact me regarding him. This is because by typing his name into Google search, this site is high on the list of results. A lot of "joe public" know how to use Google.

I'm happy to keep it that way - in this case publicity is good. If you don't feel comfortable reading about it then avoid the topic.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 11:59:26 pm by bubba »
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Offline bubba

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #134 on: November 21, 2009, 11:54:01 pm »
Have you read any of this topic? The whole thing is personal attack.
It's not a personal attack at all - I have nothing against Andrew Moorhouse, I just want him to stop telling people that he's some sort of rescue-hero in order to ensnare beginners and take them into harms way. If he stopped doing that then I suspect all of us would be happy never to hear his name again. A public health warning isn't a personal attack.

=:blubba:=

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Offline Servo

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #135 on: November 22, 2009, 12:33:19 am »
Thanks Bubba, i think you have summed it up perfectly. Surely the more people fully aware the better.

If you start sugar coating things and tip toeing around the fact then whats going to help prevent a serious incident?

Offline graham

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #136 on: November 22, 2009, 08:54:28 am »
I have intentionally kept out of this thread, as i do not know either the people or the issues involved. However given the way the thread has trended I would ask:

Do any of the people who are unhappy with this thread know exactly what happened on the day of the rescue from Giant's and, if so, could they enlighten us?
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline zomjon

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #137 on: November 22, 2009, 09:04:12 am »
Wouldn't just a single, clearly written warning about Mr Moorhouse and our concerns, kept at the top of the Derbyshire and Newbies page suffice. I expect if we all came across each other more frequently underground, and noted each others' caving techniques, we'd soon decide that some people were just not safe to cave with (or too fast, too adventurous, too bloody slim or just too boring!)

Offline zomjon

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #138 on: November 22, 2009, 09:06:42 am »
And that's to be a locked topic, there's enough tribal warfare going on in Wales at present!

scoobz

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #139 on: November 22, 2009, 09:15:37 am »
I have been friends with Andrew for the past 4 months, and contrary to what people are saying in here, he is not "a complete loon". I can't believe what some people who have probably never met him are coming out with in here.
So perhaps you can put the record straight then? What are his motives for preying on beginners and gaining their trust by giving them a misleading picture of his expertise, and inventing bogus credentials?
I have absolutely no idea what his motives are, as I myself are an "absolute beginner" who trusted him to lead me safely in and out of Giant's Hole. He's just come over to me as a likeable guy, who's tried his best to make friends with members of the Walking Group I'm a member of, in all sorts of different ways. The worst thing I can personally accuse him of is over exuberance, and over confidence in other people's abilities. Not for a minute could I ever say that he concocted a situation on purpose so that he could get some sort of "hero status". Out of a need to maybe impress people with his caving knowledge and experience he encouraged people who probably weren't physically capable to go down Garland's, that's the only critiscism I can level at him in the 4 months I have known him.
Incidentally, probably because he's been following this thread, he's now more or less uncontactable. 

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 10:41:14 am by bubba »

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #140 on: November 22, 2009, 09:34:49 am »
On the basis of what has beed posted here, then even if you think it is inappropriate to sympathise with Mr Moorhouse, then at least try to empathise with him, and if that is not possible, then say nothing.

Stoneyman 1

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #141 on: November 22, 2009, 10:33:25 am »

There was a 'lock this thread' request a few days ago. I've been away since then and have only just had a chance to read recent posts. I was a bit queasy about the way things were going when I posted my previous response, and had my initial doubts re-confirmed when catching up. I don't know this guy, will probably never meet him, but it isn't on to hatchet job someone on a public forum like this. If someone has any reason to think he's a risk to himself or others, then presumably there's someone in 'authority' who can be approached.

Thanks Robin, you have put it so well.





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« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 10:38:06 am by bubba »

Offline Turner

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #142 on: November 22, 2009, 11:59:55 am »
what get me is.....

* he posts on a suicide forum, about an accident that his him very very hard (enough to post on there etc.)

* Am i correct in saying that he was involved/caused (be it negligence or lack of knowledge i dont know) an accident  dow giants at garlands, that resulted in a rescue, please correct me if i'm wrong.

*Then he put other novices in danger again (at garlands) and from what the gut who was there posted, quite pushy to get people to go down there.....

well.....either the first bit is a load of drivel..... or if its all true the guy is going to keep on doing it. because tbh if i was involved in the first kind of act involving a death, even if it didn't phase me emotionless, the brain would kick in and say "ey up lad....give this lark a rest". Not keep doing it.....

At the end of the day YES i madre some childish posts, YES i made some stupid posts but at the end of the day this is a serious matter, and this chap needs reporting to the authorities as its clear he is and is going to put people in danger.

TBH there is a lot of PC warrior posts on here..... the thread doesnt want binning.

Bubba may i suggest that you clean it up (bin all the daft comments/arguing), lock it and Pin it so all can view.


born and bred in the peak district. not a scummy tourist :p

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #143 on: November 22, 2009, 12:04:28 pm »
Turner, do you personally know anyone who has either written or talked about self-harm or suicide?

Offline martinr

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #144 on: November 22, 2009, 12:09:44 pm »
I will probably be shot down in flames fo saying this....

Has anyone considered contacting this guy with a view to getting him to join a caving club to get some proper training? Rather than just slagging him off.


Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #145 on: November 22, 2009, 12:13:07 pm »
I will probably be shot down in flames fo saying this....

Has anyone considered contacting this guy with a view to getting him to join a caving club to get some proper training? Rather than just slagging him off.


I'll not shoot you down. It's a sensible question.

Offline Turner

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #146 on: November 22, 2009, 12:21:22 pm »
Turner, do you personally know anyone who has either written or talked about self-harm or suicide?

yes but what significance does this have with what i just said?


born and bred in the peak district. not a scummy tourist :p

Offline bubba

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2009, 12:26:55 pm »
but at the end of the day this is a serious matter, and this chap needs reporting to the authorities as its clear he is and is going to put people in danger.
Unfortunately there isn't such an authority. It's not illegal to make false claims about your leadership skills/experience. It's not illegal to say that you're part of a non-existent rescue team.

Perhaps if he were doing it for money, ie running courses/outdoor instruction then such things would be illegal but since he does it by befriending newcomers to the sport there's little that can be done.

I believe that he is well known to both the police and the local rescue organisations. I used to work with a guy from the local MRT and he's now fully aware of what's been going on.

=:blubba:=

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Offline Turner

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2009, 12:30:01 pm »
down to the great justice system we have then......"only do something about it when something bad has already happened" :( typical....


born and bred in the peak district. not a scummy tourist :p

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Moorhouse is back!
« Reply #149 on: November 22, 2009, 12:31:30 pm »
Turner, do you personally know anyone who has either written or talked about self-harm or suicide?

yes but what significance does this have with what i just said?

Because, (and I suppose it very much depends on the troubled individual), I would never try to second guess the motives of someone who had, for fear of aggravating the situation. Because I am not an expert, and wouldn't pretend to be one. That's all.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 12:40:07 pm by Peter Burgess »

 

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