Author Topic: Caves of the Peak District  (Read 45892 times)

Offline Iain Barker

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Caves of the Peak District
« on: November 26, 2009, 07:18:41 pm »
Well, Francis Lincoln have decided that COPD is not for them.
John (Beck) and myself are investigating other avenues (again).
If this book had been put out before the credit crunch we would be reading it now. Bugger.
Caves are where you find 'em!

Offline Pete K

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2009, 10:05:36 pm »
Was hoping to get a copy in my stocking this year, shame about the setback.

I for one appreciate the work going into this and the delays will make it all the more appreciated when it does arrive.

Offline owd git

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2009, 11:02:04 pm »
Iain,Have you tried Dr. D Mitchell @ scarthin books . I had conversation with him  earlier this year, would be worth 'at least'  a word with him I'm sure. With best regards & thanks for your first volume.
Owd Git.  P.S. :beer2:
 ( Re- new cave discovered! Winster way. any post-able news?)
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Offline Turner

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 12:19:03 am »
:'( need the new testament :(


born and bred in the peak district. not a scummy tourist :p

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 02:30:29 pm »
I've expressed this view before and been shot down in flames but I personally think it's time for “Caves of the Peak District” to be published on-line in PDF.  Getting low volume publications printed is usually difficult and expensive.  I know the intention is there, and those involved have put a tremendous amount of work into the “book” and deserve an enormous amount of credit but it seems a shame to have all the information locked away where no one can access it.  Don't get me wrong, I prefer real books, but I think we're at a stage where an accessible PDF publication makes more sense. Future proof, maintainable, accessible and cheaper.  I don't know what everyone else thinks but it would be interesting to know.

Offline graham

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 03:02:35 pm »
It's an interesting thought - and I speak as the editor of a guide published only a few years ago that has made sufficient money to cover its costs and more.

I am writing this on a netbook on which I could store and read such a pdf. With sufficient power and battery life to be used in the field and sufficiently flexible to pick up files either via WiFi or a broadband dongle.

It might just be that the future of cave guides is web-based, possibly even via a wiki?

Comments?
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Offline teabag

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 04:56:16 pm »
I'd pay for a download and still buy the book if it was ever printed! I want the information it contains, but I still like to browse through a book.
You know what gets me down? - Abseiling

Offline bubba

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 05:15:36 pm »

I'm assuming you have explored these, but are there any "print on demand" publishers that you could use?
=:blubba:=

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Offline underground

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 07:30:57 pm »
I've expressed this view before and been shot down in flames but I personally think it's time for “Caves of the Peak District” to be published on-line in PDF.  Getting low volume publications printed is usually difficult and expensive.  I know the intention is there, and those involved have put a tremendous amount of work into the “book” and deserve an enormous amount of credit but it seems a shame to have all the information locked away where no one can access it.  Don't get me wrong, I prefer real books, but I think we're at a stage where an accessible PDF publication makes more sense. Future proof, maintainable, accessible and cheaper.  I don't know what everyone else thinks but it would be interesting to know.

Totally agree - Life on a Line is available as a pdf, or you pay a reasonable sum of money and they print on demand, as bubba suggested.

I subscribe to a magazine via 'Exact Editions' - read it online and save / print any pages I need as pdfs - which are stamped with my email address in case I decide to start selling them!

I think it is a massive shame to forego a full printed volume, as the opportunities for reading are precisely those where I'm not at a computer - and you'd be buggered for leafingt hrough in the pub / hut as a visiting caver who only printed P8 and giant's when both of them were too wet on your choisen weekend.

The P.O.D / pdf option seems the best of both worlds IMO.

Offline Anon

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2009, 07:38:09 pm »
My thoughts are similar to teabags: I have made a lot of usage of the internet, PDFs, etc for caving related matters and it is a great resource, but call me old-fashioned, I still prefer to have a book to read. I don't own a laptop, notebook or whatever (nor do I intend purchasing one as I have no need to) so having to power up the computer and view a PDF when I want information on a certain cave limits the usability of such a guide, for me anyway.

So if I had to choose one or the other; my vote still goes for a book rather than a PDF etc - although both formats would be useful! 

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 08:04:16 pm »
I have been a subscriber to POD for a number of books and journals for a few years now. The POD printer (I am the publisher) I have been using is "OK", but I want to move on to a better quality. I would not consider using my current route for a regional caves guide - it would not be robust enough.

However, I have now got my sights on a new printer, and this one is wholly UK based, which has to be a good thing. I have sent off for a free sample pack, and there is a good choice of better and higher gauge papers and covers available. I shall be producing a second edition of Malcolm Tadd's "Underground Reigate" book shortly, using this new printer if all goes well. Although they do not do VERY small print runs economically (1-20 copies), I am comfortable with the price they will charge for a run as low as 50, which is well below the sales volume for any popular regional guide, and easily manageable for making sequential small print runs if initial outlay is a problem. Just use the income from the first sales to fund the next lot. The only drawback is that this printer will only produce A5 or A4 products at a sensible price - other sizes you pay for the A5 or A4 print which they then trim to size. If there is no rush, you might like to wait until I have ordered my first batch of the book I mentioned to see what they can do. If you can't wait, PM me and I will send details of the printer, and you can investigate them for yourself.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2009, 07:15:19 am »
A book works better actually down a cave, or perhaps in the slinging rain on some draughty fellside. (Yes, I realise photocopies are always possible but you don't always know in advance exactly which pages you might want to consult.) Besides, people who have done work behind the scenes did it for a book - not for a website, so let's not pull the rug from under them. A book is a good statement of the state of exploration at a certain time. A book has a deadline, which make people get off their backsides and submit information about new stuff rather than leaving it till some other time because they can always upload it whenever they want. A book is always sitting there on the shelf to be consulted without having to fire up the machine. A book is more environmentally friendly because it's recyclable and it doesn't consume sparks every time you want to look at it. A book doesn't require memorising yet another infernal username and password. But above all else, let's not forget that books are nice!

Offline graham

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2009, 08:33:44 am »
Pitlamp

I wholeheartedly agree that books are nice. But if no-one will publish them ...
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Offline bubba

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 09:14:38 am »
I think the best thing underground is a laminated page but yeah, books are nice - everyone likes to read their guide on the bog or on the couch :)

It'd be awesome if there was a book and a website where you could order a laminated page for a particular cave for a small fee.
=:blubba:=

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2009, 11:56:30 am »
I have had people suggest to me that I could simply put my Llangattock book up on the web or publish it as a CD . . .

Well, since the research for this book started in 1985 and the writing in October 1990, with completed drafts in 1994, 1998, 2002 and 2009 (when I've completed the Carno Adit exploration update later today, Lapworth's geological report once a copy arrives from the archive in a few days and the Daren Cilau 2002-09 exploration update . . . before Christmas!) then I have no intention of not publishing it, as Pitlamp suggests, "a good statement of the state of exploration at a certain time", in book form.

Peter has got to the nub of the problem which is finding a suitable printing firm. The quality of the print job and advice given in terms of satisfactory reproduction of the illustrations is all critical. However, if the costs mount and hidden charges later appear on the bill then the whole operation could end up being a loss-making enterprise unless a reasonable, not too expensive sale price can be set to attract people to buy the book.

Things like proof reading, designing the layout, sorting out ISBN numbers and making sure the proper legal checks and statements have been made are where authors normally opt out of the equation, but it's worth surmounting these difficulties to get a specialist caving publication into the marketplace when there are otherwise no publishers around like Dalesman to do what they used to do 30 years ago. Also, any publisher that does pick up on your work might have a completely different idea as to what is 'commercial' and you could end up finding that you have signed a contract which sends all your rights and the creative heart of your work to the wall - all quite 'legally'.

How many years was it 'Limestones and caves of Wales' was in the making? I can't remember how many authors had actually died by the time the book appeared, but the achievement was this it DID appear in the end, against the odds. Perhaps delays and setbacks are there to help give you time to iron out the mistakes, omissions and weaknesses, which you'd later be very pleased not to see in print!

I've given a caver a printed copy of a few pages from my Daren Cilau guide from the additional Llangattock guidebook which I've also written, but foundered when Mendip Publishing went under in 1994. The intention is to publish this as a book, too, on the back of the returns from the exploration story and local history section. What this caver was busy doing when I last spoke to him on the telephone was copying and laminating the pages to be able to take them underground, which will help me find out if the guide actually works in practice, when someone who doesn't know where they are going in the cave tries to use it! This is exactly what I'd expect cavers to do with the guidebook itself, when it is finally published. So, the pages will be laid up with appropriate drawings to show complex junctions against the associated descriptions in the text - taking such factors into consideration.

A web-page which looks attractive and interesting, which you can easily scroll down through, without too many words to slow you down on the way, is a completely different art form.

Offline paul

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2009, 04:02:18 pm »
It is also worth bearing in mind the new COPD, like its predecessors, has been created by volunteers. Their work, which was a long and difficult process, is almost complete. It has been designed with the end result in mind: a book. It is just a question of getting the printing done.

Producing the book in an alternative form or via another media would require yet more work, no matter how small you imagine this might be, it wouldn't be as trivial as you might first expect. It never is.


I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2009, 06:54:45 pm »
I apologise if this has been said before (which it may well have been - sadly I don't have enough time to read everything on this excellent forum) but would Lulu be any good? I don't really know much about the mechanics of printing a book but I know certain people who have made use of Lulu for similar projects to good effect.

Any good?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2009, 07:21:38 pm »
Lulu is my chosen POD provider. But I am moving away from them for new projects. Their reliability varies, their delivery charges have just gone up substantially, and the quality of paper for both contents and covers is "average", and you don't get a choice. Certainly not good enough quality for a regional guide that will probably be put through its paces. You need quite a heavy gauge of paper and a sturdy cover.

Offline martinr

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2009, 09:11:25 pm »
Did you see this report on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8382626.stm

and a link:
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/browse/espresso.jsp
"Aspiring authors can also take advantage of the new EBM technology, uploading their work in person from a CD or flash drive, to see their written creations professionally printed, bound and trimmed into perfectly packaged library-quality paperback books indistinguishable from traditional published works. "

Offline owd git

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2009, 12:55:53 pm »
Iain, you have hopeful p.m. :thumbsup:
Owd Git.
Hen racer? 2000 world hen racing champion

Offline Mark

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2009, 05:49:00 pm »
Great Hucklow Community Publishing? have just produced a cracking book called Lead in the Veins about mining in the Hucklow area.

I don't know how they got it published but I suspect it wouldn't have been a huge print run.

Maybe Nick Williams can put you in contact with someone?

Offline owd git

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 09:04:34 am »
Iain, you have hopeful p.m. :thumbsup:
Owd Git.
Hen racer? 2000 world hen racing champion

Offline C.Raven

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 01:27:25 pm »
Have you tried the Not For The Faint Hearted publisher Purprise Press.

Offline speleotel

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 03:07:03 am »


It might just be that the future of cave guides is web-based, possibly even via a wiki?

Comments?

A caving community built guide to UK caves; easy to navigate, with up to the moment information of the systems; water levels witnessed, recent boulder movement, observations on state of formations, rigging advice, access arrangements, new developments etc? (but also monitored carefully to avoid misinformation)

If it was developed without disintegration into disagreement and without having to scroll through several pages of correspondence - sounds as though it would be very useful. Does it exist already?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Caves of the Peak District
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2009, 09:24:54 am »
Could you elaborate on "monitored carefully"?