Author Topic: Giants hole, mass caving groups  (Read 2238 times)

Offline pwhole

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2021, 02:39:35 pm »
Well I did magic mushrooms all night in Old Tor Mine more than once when I was 18-25, and I didn't know wat I was doing either, but it wasn't an active stream-cave, and apart from rolling down Winnats, it was pretty safe. I'd still do it now. I got totally stuck in Buttress Hole when I was 16 and ended up crying, until I figured out how to unjam my coat and crawl backwards.

My main concern with Giants, as someone from DCA, is that we'll get all the shit when it goes horribly wrong, and asked why didn't we do something about it. It's never had this kind of traffic before, both in volume and character. I'd very much like them to Carry on Caving, but I'd hate to have Look North down there instead, especially if they send that Tom Ingle instead of Amy Garcia.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2021, 02:42:36 pm »
It's neither the moral or the legal responsibility of the caving community to wrap the general public in cotton wool. I don't think the potential risks that members of the public and the landowner are prepared to take justify using cavers money and time to vandalise the cave any more by putting a gate on it (nor does the haunting spectre of an inquest lawyer blaming "us" - more tripe I have hardly ever heard), especially a Derbyshire key, which will be opened, or a padlock, which will be broken.

And badger cams, just like they do in the middle of nowhere on Kinder Scout, would be almost instantaneously stolen, although obviously you're welcome to put your own up if you wish. Im not entirely sure it only used to be caving clubs that went in caves - they're just the ones that wrote about it - there always has been, and always will be, random members of the public being curious.

I actually like the idea of a group of DCA folks sitting by the entrance/carpark on one of the best used days though. That would make the activity most uncool, and probably get some new cavers interested, or give them guidance on where they can become more involved. As well as being a good outreach/educational activity - peak park would probably fund it


(These are my opinions not the BCA)

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2021, 03:10:27 pm »
I fail to see the relevance of Giants Hole being an active stream cave. How many call outs have there been because of this?
Hardly any I would have thought. I’d bet most are down to people with all the right gear being too tired to climb back up Garlands.

The only shit DCA would get would be if a DCA installed bolt popped out.

Mark


Offline adep

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2021, 05:27:35 pm »
plenty of people in the world who don't have shoes, or can afford shoes and who probably go caving, our ancestors did not have shoes and we know they went caving as the have painted pictures on the walls.
like Josh said apart from trying to discourage them, did you point them in the way of newtocaving or a club or evening an outdoor instructor who could take them caving?
graffiti seems you think this is a new problem, no caver then has ever graffitied a wall when using carbide lamps, or littered the cave with spent carbide? so 2 recent incidents you say its getting worse.
And early caver never went caving in unsuitable kit, & what d you call suitable kit, say to the top of garlands as opposed to down garlands.
And can anyone truly say in all there years of caving they not done something which when you think about it was a near miss and got away with it. so near miss to me would be electron  ladder down garlands pot and not having the kit or the knowledge to hand to rescue you someone of the pitch. can everyone honestly say they always have rescue kit and know how to use it?

Our ancestors caved in bare foot because thats the only choice they had, we do have numerous choices to protect our far softer feet, how can you possibly draw such a comparison is beyond me, i am sure the DCRO guys would take  a different view when dragged out to rescue this guy with a broken foot.

The graffity is using spray cans, yes there is plenty of examples of carbide soot being used to write names and dates written by early  explorers who perhaps on reflection regret there action, these morons are spraying arrows around the place, you condone that do you?
I certainly carry rescue kit and know how to use it, like many other cavers i know

Offline badger

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2021, 05:39:12 pm »
DCA or 1 of the local active clubs, in the car park/entrance engaging with those that go into giants, educating them of potential of not only the dangers, but focus on the possibilities that caving can offer. steering people to cave professionals & or clubs.
I believe and my facts might be slightly wrong the last fatality at garlands was because the group either had the wrong kit or lacked the knowledge on how to use the kit.
the last rescue might have been someone removing the ladder. before I get shot this only from a clouded memory, but both incidents may well have been bona fide cavers.
I think most curious type non cavers may get to the pitch then turn round. without the actual danger of getting to close to the pitch head,  and the active stream, on a nice day I would say was reasonable low.
we could argue that every area has a cave that has a large volume of people through on a daily basis, each has its own risks, but the fact that these caves have low cave rescue call outs does suggest that the public are not causing a big issue. most initiated call outs tend to be overdue bona fide cavers.
As for the loss or not paying the trespass fee for giants, I fail to see how people would not know as from memory there is a clear sign about it.

Offline badger

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2021, 05:46:49 pm »
I know of one person who always caved bare foot, I know of countries in the world where cavers  would cave bare foot, don't assume everyone in the world can afford shoes. no I would not cave bare foot, fortunately I earn enough money to buy footwear of my choosing.
your post suggested graffiti was new to caving, obviously I don't condone it, like I don't condone cavers who used carbide lamps to graffiti the walls of caves, I have seen arrows deep inside system which could have only been put there by cavers.
you may carry rescue kit, you may know how to use rescue kit, but many do not, many do not carry anything full stop.

Offline adep

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2021, 06:24:54 pm »
I know of one person who always caved bare foot, I know of countries in the world where cavers  would cave bare foot, don't assume everyone in the world can afford shoes. no I would not cave bare foot, fortunately I earn enough money to buy footwear of my choosing.
your post suggested graffiti was new to caving, obviously I don't condone it, like I don't condone cavers who used carbide lamps to graffiti the walls of caves, I have seen arrows deep inside system which could have only been put there by cavers.
you may carry rescue kit, you may know how to use rescue kit, but many do not, many do not carry anything full stop.

You the “sitting on the fence” type then?

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2021, 06:42:17 pm »
I know of one person who always caved bare foot, I know of countries in the world where cavers  would cave bare foot, don't assume everyone in the world can afford shoes. no I would not cave bare foot, fortunately I earn enough money to buy footwear of my choosing.
your post suggested graffiti was new to caving, obviously I don't condone it, like I don't condone cavers who used carbide lamps to graffiti the walls of caves, I have seen arrows deep inside system which could have only been put there by cavers.
you may carry rescue kit, you may know how to use rescue kit, but many do not, many do not carry anything full stop.

You the “sitting on the fence” type then?

      FIGHT  :o :o :o

Offline mikem

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2021, 06:49:17 pm »
Last call out was June 2020 at... Garlands! (But they can't spell Wapping): https://derbyshirecro.org.uk/call-outs/

Offline Alex

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2021, 07:13:59 pm »
If you really want to keep the great unwashed out, how about making the entrance into a 30ft pipe you have to crawl through, rather than a gate. Meaning cavers would still have relatively hassle free entrance and/or those who really are determined, and therefore pass the test :)

But really, who are we to stop people having a little adventure, all we really want is them to stop using those bloody spray cans and that is a crime and we should state it in big letters at the entrance of that fact (preferbly on a sign and not spray pained ;) ) and prosecute anyone doing so, other then that as they don't appear to be getting into trouble and lets face it unless you fall down garlands (rope across?) it's a pretty safe place to explore.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Online PeteHall

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2021, 08:22:27 pm »
unless you fall down garlands (rope across?)

Bridge? Staircase? Elevator? :shrug:

Maybe just fill it with concrete like they do in Wales?

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2021, 08:51:08 pm »
 :lol: :lol: :lol:
Don't you mean South Wales  :ras:  ;)

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2021, 09:06:55 pm »
423, December 2020 was the last, I was at both. And they had great outcomes. And the wrapping one was fine too. Had a lovely walk around the wormhill/Buxton quarry after that shout, didn't find anything, but had a great walk and had an early morning chatting to loads of my mates, the most bizarre part of the day was watching people turning up to go swimming at the Matlock bath hotel wandering around the car park in poncho towels, felt like sci-fi and I'd missed out on a major newsworthy event. "Always carry a towel" :shrug:

Last call out was June 2020 at... Garlands! (But they can't spell Wapping): https://derbyshirecro.org.uk/call-outs/
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 09:19:15 pm by alastairgott »

Offline Wardy

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2021, 09:20:52 pm »
Further to Alex suggestion about adding a pipe to the entrance maybe we need to go a step further.

Every cave should have a duck in the entrance to put off the "inappropriate" types.
For dry caves it could be a Mallard with a bit of attitude and for wet caves a short miserable grovel.
In both cases a small scattering of broken glass should sort the barefooters and for Derbyshire a car clamping scheme to enforce the trespass fee.

Seems simple enough really


Offline Mrs Trellis

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2021, 12:38:28 pm »
I blame Brexit. :spank:
Mrs Trellis
Upper Sheeps Bottom
North Wales

Offline 2xw

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2021, 12:54:24 pm »
Tbh I blame the pandemic. Lots more folks doing stuff at home - you'll notice lots more mountain bikers nowadays too.

Maybe it'll die down once the cheap flights to Tenerife are back

Offline JoshW

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2021, 12:56:06 pm »
Reading your post, you don%u2019t actually have any evidence of them doing anything wrong other than in your opinion being underprepared.

You mention graffiti for some reason in the same post, you allege that none of them paid the trespass fee, did you point them in the direction of useful resources like newtocaving website?



What i am saying is i imagine they didnt pay because they most likely didnt know they had too, but this is bound to cause friction with the landowner is it not?.
I am not implying that these particular people have desecrated the cave but it has happened twice recently so it is a growing problem.
As has been said on here, this is the way a lot of people get into caving with a little curiosity that grows into a passion and a hobby, and its great that people are getting out and about, but it is bound to cause problems, as it is in the bothies in scotland where some have been trashed due to party revellers, obviously this is only the minority that behave in this way

But you have literally no evidence for them not knowing whether they had to pay a trespass fee? did you ask them? You can't slate people for not having the knowledge of what to do, when you don't provide that knowledge when you have the chance.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline adep

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2021, 11:55:31 pm »
Reading your post, you don%u2019t actually have any evidence of them doing anything wrong other than in your opinion being underprepared.

You mention graffiti for some reason in the same post, you allege that none of them paid the trespass fee, did you point them in the direction of useful resources like newtocaving website?



What i am saying is i imagine they didnt pay because they most likely didnt know they had too, but this is bound to cause friction with the landowner is it not?.
I am not implying that these particular people have desecrated the cave but it has happened twice recently so it is a growing problem.
As has been said on here, this is the way a lot of people get into caving with a little curiosity that grows into a passion and a hobby, and its great that people are getting out and about, but it is bound to cause problems, as it is in the bothies in scotland where some have been trashed due to party revellers, obviously this is only the minority that behave in this way

But you have literally no evidence for them not knowing whether they had to pay a trespass fee? did you ask them? You can't slate people for not having the knowledge of what to do, when you don't provide that knowledge when you have the chance.

Not slating anyone, i said i imagine they didnt pay, as there is no notice to tell them, so yes not there fault perhaps

Offline pwhole

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2021, 10:13:58 am »
A safe full of cash stood on a pole in a field is not an access policy. That's the trouble with Giants, and everything that happens there is as a result of this attitude, including the occasional smash-and-grab raid. If they don't know they have to pay it's because there's nobody there to tell them. Put a sign on the top gate like Southfork Ranch, saying 'Admittance £3', and it might work. As I've pointed out before, this doesn't happen at Rowter Farm, because you actually have to interact with the landowners, put the money in their hands and have a conversation - and they're good people who work their asses off. So if I see them out and about in Castleton, they wave to me, because they know me. That's the difference.

Next summer, if numbers are as high as this, it would make perfect economic sense to pay someone to sit there at a kiosk and take admission fees - and maybe sell ice-creams. Who knows, the landowner might actually show up occasionally to see how his land is doing, seeing as volunteers usually do most of his work for him.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Giants hole, mass caving groups
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2021, 10:41:44 am »
We once met a group of young ladies going the other way dressed in cycling shorts, t-shirts, and cycling helmets in the Roof Tunnel in Valley Entrance of KMC, each clutching a torch. We commended them on their sense of adventure, warned them about the pitch at the end, and moved on delighted that there are still some people with initiative around.

 

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