cavemanmike
Well-known member
I can understand mines being gated as there is usually a deep shaft involved
Giants hole, mass caving groups
- Thread starter adep
- Start date
pwhole
Well-known member
Well Giants has a shallow shaft involved, but then Garlands Pot probably holds the world record for accidents, rescues and fatalities in one single cave feature - it's almost certainly the most dangerous pitch in British caving, if you check the stats, and it's only what, 6m deep? It used to be deeper until they backfilled it from the blasting - probably a good thing, or there'd have been even more deaths. And that's mostly actual cavers! Who would no doubt have claimed to have sufficent skills, until they didn't, and in many cases, died. In that context a gate seems an almost trivial basic precaution.
badger
Active member
plenty of people in the world who don't have shoes, or can afford shoes and who probably go caving, our ancestors did not have shoes and we know they went caving as the have painted pictures on the walls.
like Josh said apart from trying to discourage them, did you point them in the way of newtocaving or a club or evening an outdoor instructor who could take them caving?
graffiti seems you think this is a new problem, no caver then has ever graffitied a wall when using carbide lamps, or littered the cave with spent carbide? so 2 recent incidents you say its getting worse.
And early caver never went caving in unsuitable kit, & what d you call suitable kit, say to the top of garlands as opposed to down garlands.
And can anyone truly say in all there years of caving they not done something which when you think about it was a near miss and got away with it. so near miss to me would be electron ladder down garlands pot and not having the kit or the knowledge to hand to rescue you someone of the pitch. can everyone honestly say they always have rescue kit and know how to use it?
like Josh said apart from trying to discourage them, did you point them in the way of newtocaving or a club or evening an outdoor instructor who could take them caving?
graffiti seems you think this is a new problem, no caver then has ever graffitied a wall when using carbide lamps, or littered the cave with spent carbide? so 2 recent incidents you say its getting worse.
And early caver never went caving in unsuitable kit, & what d you call suitable kit, say to the top of garlands as opposed to down garlands.
And can anyone truly say in all there years of caving they not done something which when you think about it was a near miss and got away with it. so near miss to me would be electron ladder down garlands pot and not having the kit or the knowledge to hand to rescue you someone of the pitch. can everyone honestly say they always have rescue kit and know how to use it?
pwhole
Well-known member
The possible inadequacies of previous (or current) generations of cavers is not really relevant here though - caving equipment and clothing is as advanced and as safe as has ever been possible, so going unprepared and unskilled is just as daft now as it was in 1940 - the difference then is that only people who were passionate about caves and caving (and were prepared for the risks as best they could) went caving, and it was very much word-of-mouth or by publishing articles and surveys. Now social media has removed any hope of the first filter being applied, that of common sense, and cheap driving has removed the second filter, difficulty of access. I do keep wondering what's going on up there right now - I wouldn't like to be at Garlands Pot base after all this rain.
This is about trying to mitigate the risk of a future fatality, and excepting Giants from what most cavers would consider sensible safety procedures is somewhat baffling. The 'benefit of hindsight' is often applied after grim events, but humans also have the 'benefit of foresight', and it's usually called a Risk Assessment in the real world. Leaving it completely wide open as it currently is, could imply that cavers/landowners are encouraging unskilled operators into visiting a hazardous environemnt because it gives Cave Rescue valuable real-world experience, even to the extent of body-bags, but that is definitely more real-world than a live sheep, especially when you compare the final value and the cheque-books have to come out. I'm not trying to be a twat here, just guessing what an inquest lawyer might 'ask us' when the inevitable happens. None of this happens at any of the other 'pay-to-use' caves and mines in the area.
Here's an idea - the next sunny Saturday, DCRO park their van in the car-park and have a team sat there all day 'chatting' to visitors. Another team from DCA sit by the entrance with a click-counter, obviously counting the folks who go in, but in a 'friendly' way. Perhaps we have a laminated survey to hand to show them what they're gettign into. None of this should be intimidating, just letting them know that we all know what's going on, and they they are, after all, on private land. And that access is only permitted after paying the fee. I hate to be a rent-collector for the man, given that's his job, but I'd still do it if it meant keeping some chumps out.
And we've been talking about installing badger-cams for ages - can't we actually do it? One near the entrance, one at the approach to Garlands. One month battery-life, easy to swap. No privacy issues as it's private land, and supervision of the 'visitor attraction' for vandalism or inappropriate behaviour is well within the landowners rights.
This is about trying to mitigate the risk of a future fatality, and excepting Giants from what most cavers would consider sensible safety procedures is somewhat baffling. The 'benefit of hindsight' is often applied after grim events, but humans also have the 'benefit of foresight', and it's usually called a Risk Assessment in the real world. Leaving it completely wide open as it currently is, could imply that cavers/landowners are encouraging unskilled operators into visiting a hazardous environemnt because it gives Cave Rescue valuable real-world experience, even to the extent of body-bags, but that is definitely more real-world than a live sheep, especially when you compare the final value and the cheque-books have to come out. I'm not trying to be a twat here, just guessing what an inquest lawyer might 'ask us' when the inevitable happens. None of this happens at any of the other 'pay-to-use' caves and mines in the area.
Here's an idea - the next sunny Saturday, DCRO park their van in the car-park and have a team sat there all day 'chatting' to visitors. Another team from DCA sit by the entrance with a click-counter, obviously counting the folks who go in, but in a 'friendly' way. Perhaps we have a laminated survey to hand to show them what they're gettign into. None of this should be intimidating, just letting them know that we all know what's going on, and they they are, after all, on private land. And that access is only permitted after paying the fee. I hate to be a rent-collector for the man, given that's his job, but I'd still do it if it meant keeping some chumps out.
And we've been talking about installing badger-cams for ages - can't we actually do it? One near the entrance, one at the approach to Garlands. One month battery-life, easy to swap. No privacy issues as it's private land, and supervision of the 'visitor attraction' for vandalism or inappropriate behaviour is well within the landowners rights.
Mark Wright
Active member
Like Mark, my first few caving trips were done wearing a bobble hat, plimsoles and a hand held bike lamp down Suicide Cave and Old Tor Mine. There was no such thing as social media in 1978 but if there had have been I would probably have been posting on it and likely getting a load of flack from the cave police.
I soon moved on to a carbide lamp and certainly left my mark on many a cave passage. I even wrote my name on the wall opposite the miners toast in Speedwell after connecting Peak and Speedwell together in 1984. It was difficult to find a blank space to write it as every man and his dog had already put their names on the wall.
Even when I eventually had all the right gear I definitely had no idea what I was doing.
Some people just aren?t happy unless they are winging and moaning about something or other.
Mark
I soon moved on to a carbide lamp and certainly left my mark on many a cave passage. I even wrote my name on the wall opposite the miners toast in Speedwell after connecting Peak and Speedwell together in 1984. It was difficult to find a blank space to write it as every man and his dog had already put their names on the wall.
Even when I eventually had all the right gear I definitely had no idea what I was doing.
Some people just aren?t happy unless they are winging and moaning about something or other.
Mark
pwhole
Well-known member
Well I did magic mushrooms all night in Old Tor Mine more than once when I was 18-25, and I didn't know wat I was doing either, but it wasn't an active stream-cave, and apart from rolling down Winnats, it was pretty safe. I'd still do it now. I got totally stuck in Buttress Hole when I was 16 and ended up crying, until I figured out how to unjam my coat and crawl backwards.
My main concern with Giants, as someone from DCA, is that we'll get all the shit when it goes horribly wrong, and asked why didn't we do something about it. It's never had this kind of traffic before, both in volume and character. I'd very much like them to Carry on Caving, but I'd hate to have Look North down there instead, especially if they send that Tom Ingle instead of Amy Garcia.
My main concern with Giants, as someone from DCA, is that we'll get all the shit when it goes horribly wrong, and asked why didn't we do something about it. It's never had this kind of traffic before, both in volume and character. I'd very much like them to Carry on Caving, but I'd hate to have Look North down there instead, especially if they send that Tom Ingle instead of Amy Garcia.
2xw
Active member
It's neither the moral or the legal responsibility of the caving community to wrap the general public in cotton wool. I don't think the potential risks that members of the public and the landowner are prepared to take justify using cavers money and time to vandalise the cave any more by putting a gate on it (nor does the haunting spectre of an inquest lawyer blaming "us" - more tripe I have hardly ever heard), especially a Derbyshire key, which will be opened, or a padlock, which will be broken.
And badger cams, just like they do in the middle of nowhere on Kinder Scout, would be almost instantaneously stolen, although obviously you're welcome to put your own up if you wish. Im not entirely sure it only used to be caving clubs that went in caves - they're just the ones that wrote about it - there always has been, and always will be, random members of the public being curious.
I actually like the idea of a group of DCA folks sitting by the entrance/carpark on one of the best used days though. That would make the activity most uncool, and probably get some new cavers interested, or give them guidance on where they can become more involved. As well as being a good outreach/educational activity - peak park would probably fund it
(These are my opinions not the BCA)
And badger cams, just like they do in the middle of nowhere on Kinder Scout, would be almost instantaneously stolen, although obviously you're welcome to put your own up if you wish. Im not entirely sure it only used to be caving clubs that went in caves - they're just the ones that wrote about it - there always has been, and always will be, random members of the public being curious.
I actually like the idea of a group of DCA folks sitting by the entrance/carpark on one of the best used days though. That would make the activity most uncool, and probably get some new cavers interested, or give them guidance on where they can become more involved. As well as being a good outreach/educational activity - peak park would probably fund it
(These are my opinions not the BCA)
Mark Wright
Active member
I fail to see the relevance of Giants Hole being an active stream cave. How many call outs have there been because of this?
Hardly any I would have thought. I?d bet most are down to people with all the right gear being too tired to climb back up Garlands.
The only shit DCA would get would be if a DCA installed bolt popped out.
Mark
Hardly any I would have thought. I?d bet most are down to people with all the right gear being too tired to climb back up Garlands.
The only shit DCA would get would be if a DCA installed bolt popped out.
Mark
adep
Member
badger said:
Our ancestors caved in bare foot because thats the only choice they had, we do have numerous choices to protect our far softer feet, how can you possibly draw such a comparison is beyond me, i am sure the DCRO guys would take a different view when dragged out to rescue this guy with a broken foot.
The graffity is using spray cans, yes there is plenty of examples of carbide soot being used to write names and dates written by early explorers who perhaps on reflection regret there action, these morons are spraying arrows around the place, you condone that do you?
I certainly carry rescue kit and know how to use it, like many other cavers i know
badger
Active member
DCA or 1 of the local active clubs, in the car park/entrance engaging with those that go into giants, educating them of potential of not only the dangers, but focus on the possibilities that caving can offer. steering people to cave professionals & or clubs.
I believe and my facts might be slightly wrong the last fatality at garlands was because the group either had the wrong kit or lacked the knowledge on how to use the kit.
the last rescue might have been someone removing the ladder. before I get shot this only from a clouded memory, but both incidents may well have been bona fide cavers.
I think most curious type non cavers may get to the pitch then turn round. without the actual danger of getting to close to the pitch head, and the active stream, on a nice day I would say was reasonable low.
we could argue that every area has a cave that has a large volume of people through on a daily basis, each has its own risks, but the fact that these caves have low cave rescue call outs does suggest that the public are not causing a big issue. most initiated call outs tend to be overdue bona fide cavers.
As for the loss or not paying the trespass fee for giants, I fail to see how people would not know as from memory there is a clear sign about it.
I believe and my facts might be slightly wrong the last fatality at garlands was because the group either had the wrong kit or lacked the knowledge on how to use the kit.
the last rescue might have been someone removing the ladder. before I get shot this only from a clouded memory, but both incidents may well have been bona fide cavers.
I think most curious type non cavers may get to the pitch then turn round. without the actual danger of getting to close to the pitch head, and the active stream, on a nice day I would say was reasonable low.
we could argue that every area has a cave that has a large volume of people through on a daily basis, each has its own risks, but the fact that these caves have low cave rescue call outs does suggest that the public are not causing a big issue. most initiated call outs tend to be overdue bona fide cavers.
As for the loss or not paying the trespass fee for giants, I fail to see how people would not know as from memory there is a clear sign about it.
badger
Active member
I know of one person who always caved bare foot, I know of countries in the world where cavers would cave bare foot, don't assume everyone in the world can afford shoes. no I would not cave bare foot, fortunately I earn enough money to buy footwear of my choosing.
your post suggested graffiti was new to caving, obviously I don't condone it, like I don't condone cavers who used carbide lamps to graffiti the walls of caves, I have seen arrows deep inside system which could have only been put there by cavers.
you may carry rescue kit, you may know how to use rescue kit, but many do not, many do not carry anything full stop.
your post suggested graffiti was new to caving, obviously I don't condone it, like I don't condone cavers who used carbide lamps to graffiti the walls of caves, I have seen arrows deep inside system which could have only been put there by cavers.
you may carry rescue kit, you may know how to use rescue kit, but many do not, many do not carry anything full stop.
cavemanmike
Well-known member
adep said:
FIGHT
Alex
Well-known member
If you really want to keep the great unwashed out, how about making the entrance into a 30ft pipe you have to crawl through, rather than a gate. Meaning cavers would still have relatively hassle free entrance and/or those who really are determined, and therefore pass the test
But really, who are we to stop people having a little adventure, all we really want is them to stop using those bloody spray cans and that is a crime and we should state it in big letters at the entrance of that fact (preferbly on a sign and not spray pained ) and prosecute anyone doing so, other then that as they don't appear to be getting into trouble and lets face it unless you fall down garlands (rope across?) it's a pretty safe place to explore.
But really, who are we to stop people having a little adventure, all we really want is them to stop using those bloody spray cans and that is a crime and we should state it in big letters at the entrance of that fact (preferbly on a sign and not spray pained
) and prosecute anyone doing so, other then that as they don't appear to be getting into trouble and lets face it unless you fall down garlands (rope across?) it's a pretty safe place to explore.
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Don't you mean South Wales :ras:
alastairgott
Well-known member
423, December 2020 was the last, I was at both. And they had great outcomes. And the wrapping one was fine too. Had a lovely walk around the wormhill/Buxton quarry after that shout, didn't find anything, but had a great walk and had an early morning chatting to loads of my mates, the most bizarre part of the day was watching people turning up to go swimming at the Matlock bath hotel wandering around the car park in poncho towels, felt like sci-fi and I'd missed out on a major newsworthy event. "Always carry a towel"
mikem said:
Further to Alex suggestion about adding a pipe to the entrance maybe we need to go a step further.
Every cave should have a duck in the entrance to put off the "inappropriate" types.
For dry caves it could be a Mallard with a bit of attitude and for wet caves a short miserable grovel.
In both cases a small scattering of broken glass should sort the barefooters and for Derbyshire a car clamping scheme to enforce the trespass fee.
Seems simple enough really
Every cave should have a duck in the entrance to put off the "inappropriate" types.
For dry caves it could be a Mallard with a bit of attitude and for wet caves a short miserable grovel.
In both cases a small scattering of broken glass should sort the barefooters and for Derbyshire a car clamping scheme to enforce the trespass fee.
Seems simple enough really
Mrs Trellis
Well-known member
I blame Brexit. :spank:
