Decline in caving numbers

TheBitterEnd · Oct 13, 2013

It has been asserted on this forum many times that the number of active cavers is on the decline, is there any hard evidence to back this up - e.g. reduced membership of BCA and predecessor bodies?

Could it be that club membership is down but that there are still a similar number of cavers? (this could be because SRT requires fewer people and less expensive gear than miles of ladders, for example).

If numbers are down, what might the reason be?

cap n chris · Oct 13, 2013

IIRC numbers are up, year on year, with BCA membership although I'm sure someone will have absolute figures to hand. Generally I think caving is having a good time of it with the internet etc. so things aren't all doom-and-gloom by a long chalk.

mikem · Oct 13, 2013

I think you're probably right, however, the clubs with huts are suffering from reduced membership as improved transport, leisure time & information means many cavers don't need their facilities. The future is possibly not so bright though as there appears to be a lack of younger cavers coming through...

Mike

cap n chris · Oct 13, 2013

Indeed, but this was a topic at the opening ceremony at Hidden Earth with Hels talking about promoting caving to younger potential members, by clubs, urging the adopt-a-uni-club upon UK cavers.

It should be pretty easy to achieve, too; caving clubs which have a quiet weekend every term-time month can adopt a Uni club and offer accommodation to their members at zero cost, thereby making it easier than ever before for Uni cavers to enjoy some regional venues which they might otherwise pass over as their budgets wouldn't allow it.

Peter Burgess · Oct 13, 2013

I think you're probably right, however, the clubs with huts are suffering from reduced membership as improved transport, leisure time & information means many cavers don't need their facilities. The future is possibly not so bright though as there appears to be a lack of younger cavers coming through...

My club, which in the past five four years has gone from having one base to having two (and one is definitely not a 'hut'), has seen something like a 25 percent increase in membership numbers over the same period. Most of us live remote from a caving region. To make a trip to Wales for caving viable without accommodation would require the building of "HS3", with return fares from London in the order of ?25. And then you'd need regular, almost free, frequent transport facilities from Cardiff or Swansea up to the caves, of which there are many, and are widespread. Until that happens, I guess our cottage will be an attractive feature of the club.

paul · Oct 13, 2013

On empirical evidence, in my opinion anyway, you certainly just don't see as many cavers underground, parked in the usual places for caves or in the regular caver cafes or pubs that you used to since 20 years ago at least.

Peter Burgess · Oct 13, 2013

Perhaps there are more caves to go around!

shortscotsman · Oct 13, 2013

From the CCC newsletters the numbers of caver visits for OFD are

2008 : 2507
2009 : 2586
2010 : "about same as 09"
2011 : 2986
2012 : 3186

The 2008 figure was described as the highest since 1999. So this looks like a resurgence after a long dip. Other cave numbers follow similarish pattern but OFD has
the bulk of recorded visits

Blakethwaite · Oct 13, 2013

paul said:
You certainly just don't see as many cavers underground...

Ah at least any alleged decline isn't necessarily a bad thing then!

dunc · Oct 13, 2013

When I started in 98 you always saw the popular parking spots busy, cafes busy, even caves busy - I remember a good few occasions dealing with spaghetti at some pitch heads. 2001 was obviously the year numbers dropped and from what I saw, remained low a fair few years afterwards, however they do seem to be picking up again..

Cap'n Chris said:
It should be pretty easy to achieve, too; caving clubs which have a quiet weekend every term-time month can adopt a Uni club and offer accommodation to their members at zero cost, thereby making it easier than ever before for Uni cavers to enjoy some regional venues which they might otherwise pass over as their budgets wouldn't allow it.

The post above this quoted one suggested clubs with huts are suffering, why would offering free accommodation (which will cost the club more) help in any way, apart from helping the yoof? Maybe a better idea would be to offer it at a reduced price so both clubs benefit? A bit like HE offers a slight reduction in entry price for students, freebies are not really viable, making things cheaper are.

cap n chris · Oct 13, 2013

dunc said:
why would offering free accommodation (which will cost the club more) help in any way, apart from helping the yoof?

First of all, it's specifically *to* help the yoof. That was the whole point.
Secondly, if it's an otherwise non-booked weekend at a club's accommodation then it's arguably not costing anything (other than electric) but, like setting a sprat to catch a mackerel, it might generate goodwill such that the Uni members, upon graduating, would consider joining the club which sponsored them in this way, especially if any worthwhile networking has occurred as a result.
Therefore it seems to me that it is helpful in a multiplicity of ways, easily achieved from all sides of the equation (dependent upon the time frame you set for determining the success/help it supplies).

What's to lose?

Jopo · Oct 14, 2013

Forgive if I am wrong Cap'n Chris. I don't think I know you but gather from your many postings that you are in the professional end of caving. How many students or 'yoofs' do you teach for free?

If you think that electricity is the only cost to providing a caving cottage then please come and administer Penwyllt for the SWCC - who do give concessions to students - at members expense of course.

Jopo

Gollum · Oct 14, 2013

paul said:
you certainly just don't see as many cavers underground, parked in the usual places for caves or in the regular caver cafes or pubs that you used to.

I would fully agree.
I am in several clubs and the memberships appear to remain about the same over the years but they just don't get out caving.
unless your in a really popular cave you never meet another group of cavers unlike a few years ago when you had to wait at pitch heads to get down even the less popular caves.
I blame the transport of the devil (mountain bikes) for the decline

cap n chris · Oct 14, 2013

Jopo said:
Forgive if I am wrong Cap'n Chris. I don't think I know you but gather from your many postings that you are in the professional end of caving. How many students or 'yoofs' do you teach for free?

Not a huge number but there is a trickle down effect; this year I'd guess somewhere around 20 days caving has been given for free to young(er) cavers with quite a lot more in my diary before the year end.

cap n chris · Oct 14, 2013

Jopo said:
If you think that electricity is the only cost to providing a caving cottage then please come and administer Penwyllt for the SWCC - who do give concessions to students - at members expense of course.

The overheads of running a caving facility are met by the membership, for sure; therefore it's a committee/membership decision whether or not to adopt-a-Uni-club; if the decision is to be supportive clearly the net result will be to provide something tangible over and beyond that which is on offer to routine visiting student groups. Yes, there will be a cost but isn't that part and parcel of supporting younger cavers?

I guess it boils down to what people are actually prepared to do to try and encourage more younger people into caving.

TheBitterEnd · Oct 14, 2013

The comments above seem to indicate that numbers are steady or on the up in recent years but I still wonder if anyone has analysed numbers going back to say the 70's?

On the number of cavers vs. numbers actually in the cave, Gollum blames mountain bikes but in general I think there could be a point there. People interested in "open air recreation" are probably more likely to pursue a range of activities. The number of Canoers/Kayakers seems to have shot up and most cavers I know are active in at least one other outdoors pursuit (climbing, kayaking, MTB, cycling, running seem to be the most common).

Also it now being asserted that there are no "young" people coming into caving. I seem to see a wide range of ages so again, is there any evidence for this? I guess it is probably much harder to find numbers by age group?

Glenn · Oct 14, 2013

If you go to the BCA website and look for the minutes of this years AGM, then page down to my report (Membership Administrator) there is a table showing membership number since BCA was created. It shows, generally, a static number of members, but with a surprisingly high churn figure (people going in and out of BCA).

Sorry I don't have time to post the link, but I'm just going out.

Glenn

via the Speleo Vercors wifi LAN at La Jarjatte-en-Vercors
www.speleo-vercors.org

graham · Oct 14, 2013

TheBitterEnd said:
The comments above seem to indicate that numbers are steady or on the up in recent years but I still wonder if anyone has analysed numbers going back to say the 70's?

I'm sure nobody has, it would be interesting to do - properly.

TheBitterEnd said:
On the number of cavers vs. numbers actually in the cave, Gollum blames mountain bikes but in general I think there could be a point there. People interested in "open air recreation" are probably more likely to pursue a range of activities. The number of Canoers/Kayakers seems to have shot up and most cavers I know are active in at least one other outdoors pursuit (climbing, kayaking, MTB, cycling, running seem to be the most common).

One, quite persuasive, argument is that fewer people have the all-encompassing attitude towards caving that is found in the dedicated Mendip digger, for example. I doubt anyone ever saw J-Rat on a mountain bike.

TheBitterEnd said:
Also it now being asserted that there are no "young" people coming into caving. I seem to see a wide range of ages so again, is there any evidence for this? I guess it is probably much harder to find numbers by age group?

Given time and a following wind I should be able to analyse the outcomes of those who have come into caving through my (university) club over the years. Not sure I'll be able to find the time, but I imagine that other clubs would also have the raw data available.

Glenn's point about the high churn figure is an interesting one. I could hazard a few guesses as to why that might be, but it would help (no Glenn, I'm not asking, I don't have time to take the research on) to see how that figure changes across time and to see what other factors it might be related to.

It is worth pointing out, however, that those who only cave once or twice with a professional instructor will not figure on BCA's radar whereas those introduced by a club, but who stay not much longer, may well do.

TheBitterEnd · Oct 14, 2013

Thanks Glenn - here's the link http://british-caving.org.uk/admin/AGM%20Draft%20Minutes%202012.pdf

and here are the numbers

	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011
DIMs	93	185		437	432	397	487*	505*
CIMs	3,523	3,909		4,965	5,216	5,115	5,296	5,435
Clubs	89	140		153	152	160	166	189

Aubrey · Oct 14, 2013

Those figures look like a steady increase in numbers.

Decline in caving numbers

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