With recent publicity regarding trying to enthuse younger people into caving, in another thread I read:

Badlad said:

Regulars to the Dales may well have seen a certain school minibus around.  I met this school while caving.  These guys were all about 13-14 years old and they were well kitted out and would put many club cavers to shame in their SRT skills.  However, because they are so young they are minded by CIC instructors

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For decades we have had (and still do have) outdoor pursuits companies providing introductory caving to youngsters but more often than not that's about all they get - an introduction - and if they are enthusiastic about caving they might go again perhaps once or twice more but after that there's no real progression available to them - many (not all - start another thread if you must!) clubs do not cater for under 18s as it is more often than not too much hassle with child protection policies/paranoia et al meaning they generally stipulate membership for over 18s only (after all, historically many caving clubs were actually drinking clubs with a bit of caving thrown in as an excuse).

Overseas there are centres of excellence providing SRT tuition to under 10s, e.g.:

Campamento Infantil de Espeleologia

It would be nice to think that somewhere in the UK children who show marked enthusiasm for caving can be trained and fast tracked to proficiency such that by the time they are 16 they can be fully functioning highly skilled active members of overseas expeditions. Sadly I doubt this is the case. It is in other countries.

Is the "problem" the club system, our education system, our insurance fears, our "lack of vision" or just the inertia of doing what we've always done because "that's what we've always done"?

I think the UK has all the tools at its disposal to create young caving superstars and I also believe there are candidates who are keen to do just that but at present, other than having sufficient wealth to engage private tutors, I think there is little likelihood of it coming to fruition as things stand (for any child who isn't fortunate enough to have a supportive caving family member).

I suspect that certain top flight schools such as Millfield may already provide SRT tuition as a standard feature of extra mural caving club training but it should (surely) be part and parcel of caver training for any serious youth caving organisation. I'm pretty sure some of the more active Scout groups already do this.

Are there any summer schools providing "proper caving" rather than just the primer stuff which is a commonplace?

Is the "problem" the club system, our education system, our insurance fears, our "lack of vision" or just the inertia of doing what we've always done because "that's what we've always done"?

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Yes.

Suggest how various people/bodies escape this pathetic cycle...

Cap'n Chris said:

Are there any summer schools providing "proper caving" rather than just the primer stuff which is a commonplace?

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Doubt it, 'cos there's no money in it. Money rules everything in the UK.

BCA Scholarships run via ACI, on a subsidised discretionary basis though, would work if you could keep the bureaucracy out of the equation*.


* Which means it probably wouldn't, because you couldn't.

Until SamT took me for a Giant's round trip (after which it was literally a switch turning on - stop climbing start caving, and a week later I was digging in Bagshawe with the Eldon and still am 10 years later), I was a 'definitely not, caving is shit, cold, dark, hurts, nothing to see' man / boy.

I'd done it lots as a kid, through Scouts, Venture Scouts, Uni Fresher's wek pressure etc, and every time, it was wearing old clothes, trainers, carrying a hand torch, no pads, and it was about as much interest and fun as pony trekking for beginners - i.e. nose to tail, slow, no interaction / explanation of where we are, what we could learn etc. Basically getting cold and wet and hurt for the sake of it, as I saw it.
I was lucky and knew Sam, and was fed by his enthusiasm, ability to facilitate an SRT trip using climbing gear I already had, and the fact the trip was in a decent cave. Even now I don't relish the idea of going into a polished, de-decced, sharp crawl like Shell passage in Carlswark. I did go into Bagshawe as a kid but trapped in a big group of bewildered lads, coupled with a shitty Ever Ready torch so seeing nothing, balls to that.

I have to admit that a: I don't know (and I assume you do) if leaders now equip groups in decent kit, and give some interpretation / inspiration on the trip - although I would put money on some buggers just dragging the kids round the cave and

b: It's feasible to take groups into 'nicer' caves, given what's suitably on offer in the UK, no lovely dry open spaces to explain SRT and supervise very closely etc

But anyway, a few things occur to me.

1. I(and I know you're suggesting summer schools, schools, etc as more 'long term' opportunities Chris) but is the usual system of guiding ever going to overcome the issue? i.e. youth hostel week long visits, day caving trips etc - the best that's going to achieve is inspire the odd one or two who 'get it' - the rest are probably doing it because they have to, wren't interested and are still not afterwards.

2. How do kids even show a marked interest in caving unless they're exposed to it? I expect it's quite similar to France, where climbing is massive and on the school curriculum (as is riding bikes I learned recently - my mate who runs gites in Fontainbleau decided to 'teach' his lad to ride - and he could, done it in school and just forgot to mention it). Most people I know (take at the office as an example) consider caves their idea of hell, think I'm mad, 'they'd get claustrophobic / it could flood / what if it all caves in' etc... They are not going to encourage or expose their kids to caving, let alone pay for them to try it.

I suspect it just doesn't enter into 99% of the populations thoughts.. although a bit more TV exposure etc might help - I thought the BBC documentary with Kate Humble and Steve Backshall, Tim and Pam Fogg, Moose etc. was absolutely amazing... but still, they didn't gloss over the fact that for most people, caving's going to be quite tough and unpleasant.

3. Talking about 'caving superstars'. It's not Old Trafford is it? I'd hate to think of Monster Energy or Red Bull running 'Speleo Daredevils' or some such shit. Logistics of putting on a stadium show aside, imagine if they did and suddenly Priddy or Stoney Middleton was overrun by vans full of adrenaline junkies piling into every cave around - whooping and doing devil signs....

I think caving finds the superstars, and they are few and far between, due to the huge commitment required to become a superstar. As leads get more and more scarce, do we need loads of young superstars? Not in the UK, IMO, yet I'd agree there needs to be thriving 'scene' to keep the sport and the exploration alive, which would appear to be diminishing. For global exploration however, it's probably crucial. I was listening to Dave Gill talking about the 80's Nare River expedition yesterday, and wondered how the equivalent group of lads could achieve the same now.

4. So with the above in mind - what would you like the vision to achieve, other than increase the caving 'industry'? (and I know you have a vested interest in doing so and I don't intend any malice by asking) - I'd say that if it is to encourage, inspire, particularly give an outlet to those kids (like myself) who just don't get teamsports and the non-questioning tribal aspect of football or vicarious spectatorship, then yes, it'd be brilliant - but that's different from creating a whole load of demand for the sake of creating demand. That's what Monster and Red Bull are good at...

4.

Chris raises some very interesting points there.

I think a basic issue is, do we want quantity or quality? There's something to be said for having fewer participants but those who are involved being keen and competent, rather than coerced - which would inevitably happen in some cases if it all became too regimented. My gut feeling is that the keen ones will find a way and that caving is best kept mainly (but not completely) as an amateur thing. Then again that's easy for me to say because when I started there were fewer obstacles (originating from the government) to getting involved with a club. But the club system is very good and should continue to play the main role, in my view.

Inevitably, the position of people who make their living from caving is going to be mentioned here. Please can I also state that I have no problem with this - and that I know such folk fulfil a very useful role. (Some of my friends do this and I know they do an excellent job.) I'd like to think though that caving remains, in the main, an amateur activity.

I'm glad you raised this issue though Chris; you're right, there certainly is room for us all to do better in this area. Without the input from the younger end, caving is ultimately doomed. It would be great if clubs took this more seriously (although I know for a fact that certain of the larger Dales based clubs already do quite a lot in this area).

Those are my opinions; others will no doubt have different views. Discussing such things is very important, so thanks for bringing it up Chris.

I think Chris has raised a very important issue.

He is right in his assumptions as to why clubs deter younger members and I am certain almost all clubs have their own experiences with young people; let me add two more;

Every year (until around 4 years ago) our club hosted trips for scouts into a cave (they get a badge for it). It was a big event for them and sometimes ?cubs? would be invested as ?scouts? in an underground ceremony (that must be really exciting for them). That has now stopped and I regret that the specific reason escapes me but the scout masters were no longer allowed to take the children underground (they were missing some necessary ?safety red-tape?) and, likewise, the club leaders were missing some necessary ?children red-tape?. So, no more scouting trips.

Additionally, (I bet this is the same for other clubs with teenagers) we do allow under 18?s and we have had some teenagers (often sons and daughters of members) who have thoroughly enjoyed the adventure but all of whom suddenly stop caving when they hit, about ?16? and begin engaging in a different type of pot-holing as their hormones begin to explode.

BCA do have a ?Try caving? incentive and don?t deter younger people. And, as we have seen, the outdoor centres also take younger people underground. I think it is a good thing and it would be helpful if the prevailing authorities who lay down the rules/law (viz-a-viz under 18?s) that prevent some trips would ease up a little bit.

Ian

The rest of the paragraph quoted above was this;

"One final observation about 'commercial' cavers.  Regulars to the Dales may well have seen a certain school minibus around.  I met this school down Ireby Fell Cavern doing the sidewinder route.  These guys were all about 13-14 years old and they were well kitted out and would put many club cavers to shame with their SRT skills.  However, because they are so young they are minded by CIC instructors who are paid - so this is what you call 'commercial' caving.  I also remember seeing these guys in County Pot some years ago.  Now they can't go caving there any more.  Such a shame that the message we send out to these really good young cavers is that we don't want them in our caves."

British Caving sends out a lot of negative messages, the restrictions on access and the politicking that goes on behind it, is just one such message.

the legal requirements with involvement with under 18's is the same for any adult/group. 1, you have to complete a CRB (now known by another name but cant think of what it is) takess about 10 minutes to fill in and send of. normally if completing say for scouts they pay the required fee.
the problem with this system is it is only as good as the day its issued, a misunderstanding by those who get the CRB back, and you have to complete a seperate form for each organisation.
the mistunderstanding comes from if you have a section of your CRB which has something declared, then people just say no you cant have contact with under 18's. whilst the offence declared would not have any bearing on your ability to involvement.

the next issue for clubs if they accept under 18's they would then need someone in the club role as " A Welfare Officer". I do not know if they have to a course. In my running club it tends to be members who are School teachers.
So the next problem will be those who then lead under 18's in adventureous activity need to have some form of recognised training.
All of which I do not think is major issues, just people make issues.
We now have all of the above in place, so caving in mendips, you taken your group down and they want to do more so you then take them underground again. after which they want another trip, so you want to give them a better trip,  you get the idea here, a what point do the under 18 get bored because of the limit of your qualification, the limit of cave access requirements. or probably the biggest problem the taxi of mum and dad

So is there any evidence that this bureaucratic bulls*it makes children any safer.
What I mean is, are there less incidents now of kiddy fiddlers getting near children because of this paper trail.
If there is no statistical evidence that anything has actually changed in the real world then all this bulls*it achieves is yet more hurdles for people to get over to help and enthuse children, in any activities...

ALL of the paperwork requirements could easily be dealt with if the under 18s signed up for tuition under the umbrella of a licensed outdoor centre, the tuition could be farmed out to subsidised tutors (franchised? - think "Forest Schools" but do a "Caving Schools" equivalent?), and the keenies could gain a "grant/scholarship" by completing an essay or crib sheet outlining their caving interest. Think of it along the lines of BCA-funded club training grants, if you like. You might even stipulate that a suitable local caving club is included in the programme, specifically so that there is cross-over rather than an isolationist attitude.

Given the vagaries of UK weather it would probably be best to aim it at a summer camp philosophy, as they do in mainland Europe. A centre with an indoor climbing wall would be a distinct advantage; it should also include other elements of caving such as conservation, surveying, photography etc.. A five day event running back to back for many weeks should be able to train dozens of youngsters.

Les W said:

So is there any evidence that this bureaucratic bulls*it makes children any safer.

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IIRC, a most definite "Yes". Unless you're Catholic.

For example, I read within the last few years that the HSE demoted instructed caving into a "low risk" category pursuit, presumably by dint of improved training, equipment and group management. I have tried finding the document online where I saw this but have yet to be successful - their website is HUGE!

I wasn't referring to safety generally Cap'n, just the aspect that requires a CRB check (i.e. is there evidence of less kiddy fiddling because of CRB checks...)

If not then the whole CRB thing is quite a big, unnecessary obstacle to children engaging in any pursuits with adults...

Les W said:

If not then the whole CRB thing is quite a big, unnecessary obstacle to children engaging in any pursuits with adults...

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... and has caused the cessation of scouts caving with us in North Wales 

Ian

Nice one Chris  I think this is one of the most pressing issues in British caving today.
It is very clear if you look at what turns struggling university caving clubs around it is more often then not the arrival of one or two enthusiastic fresher's who have been involved in the sport before arrival classic recent examples where this has happened include SUSS with characters like the 3 robs and Rosie Hadfield and Leeds UUSS with Mike butcher and Myself.

I Agree with Chris it would be great if a cooperative of instructors could offer a regular session each week under the umbrella of an outdoor centres insurance I think there's particular scope in the Mendips and Derbyshire given there proximity to Bristol and Sheffield. I don't think there would be much money in it but it would be a good way for us to give something back to the sport we make a living from.

Both EECC and FSC operate a "camp" based approach to caver training and it is effective with children who start at a young age becoming proficient cave leaders who return to help instruct as adults. They also have the benefit of being accessible to children from across the country as well as in the local area. But I do think regular regional sessions would be incredibly beneficial with much more scope for cross over with local caving clubs.

Could we have an open forum at the next hidden earth to discuss how we could provide accessible progressive training for young cavers? 

their is no  reason why the crb process should be a big thing, it takes no more than 10 minutes to fill in and if doing through the scout process they pay the fee. a very poor to use this as an excuse.
the other argument to use against the crb, is 1, it is only as good as the day the disclosure is issued, 2, I dont know how effective it is in stopping peodiphiles, 3, for each seperate organiation you need to fill in another crb form. 4, the process is misunderstood in if the disclosure comes back with a positive, most organisations immeadiately will say no, regardless to the disclosure and the effect/ability it holds against that person being suitable or not for the activity.
for excample ( and I am not saying this individual should not have been locked up and the key thrown away) a school teacher at a all girl school and apparently a quite brilliant teacher, the crb revealed him as a peadophile so no longer was able to work, his problem was boys and not girls, with girls he did not have a problem. like I said the key should have been thrown away and possible this is a bad example, my point is with a crb comes back postive organisations do not use judgement in their yes or no.
I am not sure of what system could be used to prevent peodophiles, and this system is far from perfect, but I think people who use as it takes to much of their time is a red herring,
I have to have 2, their is a new system in place which has replaced the crb, not sure/cany remember its name, but I have one to fill in.
For clubs I would think the issue of having  a welfare officer, would be more of an issue. as probably and not sure, they would have to attend or have completed one a enhanced check, and have to have attend course/courses

New CRB = DBS - disclosure and barring service

another issue if you have managed to fulfill all the issues above to take under 18's underground is where to take them, how often into the same system before they become disinterested, and here lies a big problem, and I am not saying the system is wrong, just an issue, the bca traing system I believe, that you have named systems (part of systems) in your permitted list, so for argument sake on mendip you get goatchurch, swildons upper series as your permitted list, if the weather becomes very wet, this might then prevent you going under top series, so you end back to goatchurch, your young group then become enthused but you can only offer the 2 named caves, a young person could become disinterested quite quickly, and if you do not get permits for other areas you come very limited on what you can offer a young person who shows a real interest in caving.
sorry if this all sounds long winded, not sure how I could write it in a shorter way
what I am trying to say is we have issues in the protection of children, we have a system which is not perfect, but we also have issues in the training of leaders, not sure if there is ways to improve either or just have to work in the restrictions as they are.
for information I have a permit by the scouts to take under 18's underground, the way our county issue the permits is "Caves known to the applicant" which means say for yorkshire would include long churn, but exclude (not sure of the name) but a similar cave near to ribblehead, 

If the format was, say, a five day fast track course, and presuming the aspiring trainee had already done sufficient proving trips in the usual introductory venues, then you'd only really be looking to visit perhaps 3 or 4 further venues; the hope would be that these trips would be an underground application of surface-learnt SRT/ladder, underground navigation but also covering conservation and perhaps hazard recognition and a final trip probably involving more SRT and perhaps photography as well.

This is entirely by way of example and does not mean that any of these elements would actually feature - it's just an example of the kind of outline which might be worthwhile; you certainly wouldn't need a huge array of caves in order to cover these training elements.

Well, personally, I can see why there are less under 18?s going underground now.

Why not just cut the red tape instead of justifying it all ?

Is it really necessary to micro-manage everything ?

Do we really need 101 training courses and certificates to know that we are ?safe? to take an under 18 underground (or is it sufficient that the 4 club members who have been competently caving together for the last 10 years might actually know what they are doing) ?

Do we really need a piece of paper (regardless of who pays) to state, to a legal certainty, that one of the caving leaders isn?t a paedophile (or is it sufficient that the 4 club members who have been competently caving together for the last 10 years might actually know whether there is a kiddy fiddler amongst them) ?

What happened to common sense ?

The reason our club hasn?t been CRB (or DBS) checked is the scouts didn?t want to pay for them and why should they ?  There is something very distasteful about assuming we are all guilty and having to check to make sure we are innocent. Yes, shout out ?well, it for the safety of the children? ? but is it really ?  Does it really make a difference ? 

Who suffers because of all the red tape ?  (I certainly know who hasn?t been caving in North Wales)

Chris is right, we are missing opportunities and we could (should) do more. Wrapping ourselves up in self-righteous glorified glittering red tape just isn?t the answer though. Common sense is.

How soon will it be before WE can?t go caving without a ?nanny? ?

Ian