A new knot for caving ??

[NewStuff]

It amazes me that people are rushing to propose using a new knot
(because it's new so must be better)
Replacing knots that have been used by generations of cavers and which have been the subject of extensive research and practical testing.

So a Fig 8 knot takes a few min to un-tie, that means it was secure and was not going to slip in use.
How secure is a knot that comes undone with just a shake of the rope?
(The answer is you don't know when you are hanging from it, you just hope that you tied it correctly.)

I don't think anyone has said "it's new it must be better" or even approached an insinuation of that. It is interesting new knot. Take it at face value, *try* it out and maybe, just maybe, in some situations, it will be a better knot, and in some you would be silly to use it... just like every other knot in the world.

And the answer to your question is determined by *testing* how good a knot is that comes undone with just a shake, which is what this needs, not pseudo-insight designed to depress an idea you do not like.

 

[Kenilworth]

It amazes me that people are rushing to propose using a new knot
(because it's new so must be better)
Replacing knots that have been used by generations of cavers and which have been the subject of extensive research and practical testing.

So a Fig 8 knot takes a few min to un-tie, that means it was secure and was not going to slip in use.
How secure is a knot that comes undone with just a shake of the rope?
(The answer is you don't know when you are hanging from it, you just hope that you tied it correctly.)

I don't think anyone has said "it's new it must be better" or even approached an insinuation of that. It is interesting new knot. Take it at face value, *try* it out and maybe, just maybe, in some situations, it will be a better knot, and in some you would be silly to use it... just like every other knot in the world.

And the answer to your question is determined by *testing* how good a knot is that comes undone with just a shake, which is what this needs, not pseudo-insight designed to depress an idea you do not like.

If anyone wants to learn a new knot as a point of general interest, or because knots and ropework are a primary hobby, then this is good, interesting stuff. But of course, there is no need for any new caving knots. And while it's true that this knot may be perfectly acceptable, or even excellent, in some applications, most of us only have room in our head for so much. This is especially true if we aren't using knots constantly. So for a knot to be considered truly revolutionary, or even worth learning for the average caver, it would need to be a superior replacement to the common knots already in use. This knot does not appear to be anywhere near versatile enough to do so.

 

[Mark Wright]

I've just been doing a bit of 'testing' at home on a new length of Spanset Gold. Tying the double version of the knot around a ring does take a fair bit of dressing but it is very neat once its been set. Tying it underground on a more likely stiffer length of rope would probably result in the knot not being as neat as the one they tested to destruction on the video so I would be wary of those breaking figures until I was sure sufficient testing had been done on a variety of ropes, e.g. thick, thin, soft, stiff, worn and wet and with varying degrees of dressing and setting.

I've seen what a lot of people call well dressed Fig 8 on the Bight knots, the problem is, the difference between a badly dressed Fig 8 and a badly dressed Jonny knot could be the difference between life and death.

Having said that the breaking strength the knot achieved on the video isn't that much different to most knots. A round turn and two half hitches would probably achieve that.

One of the important things to test, particularly if its being used on the end of a cow's tail, is the dynamic capabilities of the knot. You never know it might be really good but I doubt very much, based on the shape of the knot, it would be anywhere near as good as a double twisted scaffold knot, which also holds the carabiner in the correct orientation. I wouldn't be surprised if a round tun and two half hitches was a better energy absorber than a Jonny knot.

I've also been playing with the cow's tail version on the same new length of low stretch Spanset Gold. If you don't make a very good job of dressing and setting the end that you pass back through the carabiner and poke back through the knot you can get it to undo itself with not much more than a shake and a wiggle.

I think I would recommend having a bit more of a tail than shown on the video and probably stick a half hitch or two around the live part of the rope with the tail, just to be sure. Trouble is you are now having to tie two knots to be safe, a bit like a bowline. I'd rather tie one knot that I know is good and has been properly tried and tested over a long period and taking account of foreseeable misuse, i.e. poorly dressed and badly set.

There does seem to be a thing on a few of these forum threads about saving on weight by using knots that use less rope and lightweight carabiners but I bet most of those people will have a full English before they go caving. Are a few crabs and M/R's really that heavy? 

When tied around a ring, e.g. at a rebelay, the knot uses about 2" more rope than a Fig 9 on the Bight and nearly 6" more than a Fig 8 on the Bight with the same loop and tail sizes.

The cow's tail version of the knot IS likely to affect the safe functioning of some of the smaller more lightweight carabiners as discussed on other similar topics and mentioned earlier on here.

I think Kenilworth sums it up nicely.

Mark

 

[NewStuff]

The difference being, you *actually* tested it to a degree. 

 

[Kenilworth]

The difference being, you *actually* tested it to a degree. 

Correct.
Personally, I have no need for or much interest in learning new knots. However, I can say with certainty and without testing that this one has nothing to offer me, since I use ratty old stiff super-static 11mm.

 

[NewStuff]

If anyone wants to learn a new knot as a point of general interest, or because knots and ropework are a primary hobby, then this is good, interesting stuff. But of course, there is no need for any new caving knots.

Personally, I have no need for or much interest in learning new knots.

I don't know if it's a cultural difference and unintentional, you being a yank and all, but by christ you come across as a right stuck up ponce.

 

[Madness]

If anyone wants to learn a new knot as a point of general interest, or because knots and ropework are a primary hobby, then this is good, interesting stuff. But of course, there is no need for any new caving knots.

Personally, I have no need for or much interest in learning new knots.

I don't know if it's a cultural difference and unintentional, you being a yank and all, but by christ you come across as a right stuck up ponce.

I tend to agree that there isn't a need for as new knot in caving. What we already have work fine.

If Kenilworth has no interest in a new knot then that's fine and up to him.

It doesn't make him a 'stuck up ponce'.

Can we not remain civil even when we don't necessarily agree?

 

[NewStuff]

It's not his viewpoint, it's his attitude, and as I pointed out, he may not be aware of it due to cultural differences. I'm not known for playing nicely, I say it as I see it, and and that's about as much "nice" as I can muster.

 

[Fulk]

Oddly enough, I never saw anything in kenilworth's post that suggested to me 'stuck up ponce'; where on Earth did that (to me, totally unwarranted) observation originate?

And as for

I'm not known for playing nicely

Is that something to be proud of?

 

[Kenilworth]

I dunno what a ponce is... being a "yank" and all.

I thought this thread was about a knot?

 

[Smiley Alan]

any one who  calls a yank a ponce is a  jerk .

 

[badger]

to have someone suggest a new knot for caving is not an issue, it could prove to be better, not saying this knot is, when I first started with srt we always tied our cowstails with fig 8 on a bight, now its is generally recognised the barrel/scaffold knot is better.
It is always useful to have a selection of knots to use, as different knots work better in certain situations, but would say if you only know one knot say fig 8 on a bight or the double fig 8 (bunny ears) then although not necessarily the best knot in all places but is safe.
I not really going to lose much sleep if I cant tie this new knot as personally think its application is limited and where it could be useful I will have to use some imagination with the knowledge of the knots I know

 

[Wayland Smith]

When half way up or down an SRT pitch I would rather be thinking
"That fig 8 will be locked up tight."

Than.

"I wonder if that new knot is tied correctly?  :-\ :-\

 

[mudman]

I dunno what a ponce is... being a "yank" and all.

I thought this thread was about a knot?

And from the context within which he's used the word, I think we can safely say that Newstuff doesn't know what it means either.

 

[NewStuff]

I dunno what a ponce is... being a "yank" and all.

I thought this thread was about a knot?

And from the context within which he's used the word, I think we can safely say that Newstuff doesn't know what it means either.

I know multiple meanings, including the one you are obviously alluding to, so go boil yer head.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Another UK Caving discussion degenerates into childish bickering and insults.
It's about time for some slapping from moderators!  :chair:

 

[NewStuff]

Another UK Caving discussion degenerates into childish bickering and insults.
It's about time for some slapping from moderators!  :chair:

Well, if I'm honest, I find a lot of your post offensive. I don't whinge about it, I just keep scrolling.

 

[mikem]

They obviously have better things to do with their time...

4 loops of rope through opening causes trouble with possibly opening krab gate (though I'm not sure why this is a problem).

It is an issue if, as someone was suggesting upthread, it could be used as a cowstail knot instead of the scaffold/barrel knot

The cowstails would be tied with the end of the rope, so only have two loops, whilst the knot can also be tied on a bight, hence 4 loops - this would be a problem with a small krab as the main reason for using it is the ease of sliding it off the krab & it then coming undone. My preference would be for a knot that is a bit awkward to untie, as it's unlikely to release itself...

Mike

Mike

 

[Pegasus]

New lap top, so for reason can't post this as a Moderator comment - however, it is one.

Newstuff, please refrain from posting in the manner you have above - UKC is no longer the place for personal insults and being unpleasant.

Please now, back on topic, thank you, Pegasus

 

[Mark Wright]

The difference being, you *actually* tested it to a degree. 

I came to the same conclusion as Kenilworth before I actually 'tested it to a degree' so I suppose I must be a stuck up Yorkshire ponce.

Whilst the double version of the knot might be OK for making an attachment to a ring, this situation would be very rare in the UK and I can't imagine a casualty, suspended from the rope below the knot, would be too chuffed when the rescue team had nowhere to attach their ropes because the Jonny knot was taking up all the available space on the ring.

As for its use on the end of a cow's tail, admittedly I've not tested its dynamic capabilities, but with over 30 years of experience of knots in a professional capacity, I can't see it being anywhere near as good as a tried and tested Scaffold knot, or a Fig 8 or 9 on the Bight and as such see little point to it at all.

As MarkS suggested, the knot appears to be a solution looking for a problem.

Mark